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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1797
Joined: 2004
Flood the tunnels
12/6/2023 1:07:45 PM
I've read several stories lately that the IDF is considering using sea water to flood the Hamas tunnels in Gaza. My first thought is what if the Israel hostages are in these tunnels? Seems pretty callous to just write them off. Also I'm curious if Hamas may have foreseen this and installed a series of water tite doors to stop flooding?

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13552
Joined: 2009
Flood the tunnels
12/6/2023 1:25:19 PM
I wondered the same thing, Larry. There are Israeli soldiers likely hidden in those tunnels too and they may not be held directly by Hamas but by one of the other terrorist groups at play here.

As for the doors, I do recall a newscast whereby a large steel door at the end of a long tunnel was shown by IDF to the press. They had not approached the door because they had not determined whether it was booby trapped. So I tend to agree that the tunnel system may include doors that compartmentalize the whole system.

Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/6/2023 3:22:40 PM
Quote:
I've read several stories lately that the IDF is considering using sea water to flood the Hamas tunnels in Gaza. My first thought is what if the Israel hostages are in these tunnels? Seems pretty callous to just write them off. Also I'm curious if Hamas may have foreseen this and installed a series of water tite doors to stop flooding?

Larry.


Hi Larry.

Callous, or hardened is an aspect the Israeli government has had to impose with their war against Hamas terrorism. That's easy for me to say no doubt, I have no relatives murdered, kidnapped, raped, abused, etc., by Hamas but I understand that this is an all out war for Israel that requires a brutal, unrelenting response and decision-making in the best interests of the nation of Israel.

Israeli relatives have had screaming bouts at/with Netanyahu/Israeli government officials, declaring they want their relatives back regardless of the cost and I don't blame those relatives. Again, war in all its brutality hits civilians, Israeli and Palestinians with relentlessness. There is an advantage for Hamas keeping the Israel hostages alive as the rate of exchange greatly favors the terrorists in numbers exchanged. But now, Hamas is seeing a black side to their actions and the exchange is being once again constricted not by Israel but by Hamas as they do not want these people, the hostages to go on TV and tell the world just who and what Hamas is and what Palestinian-Hamas have done to them.

Dan


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1974
Joined: 2010
Flood the tunnels
12/6/2023 8:44:41 PM
If they have any miners on the team Hamas would have had drains installed. Heavy rains would flood the tunnels otherwise.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/7/2023 11:37:04 AM
Tunnels are being flooded by the IDF, see attached video, go to the 2:36 mark for a review of.

[Read More]

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1974
Joined: 2010
Flood the tunnels
12/7/2023 12:18:32 PM
So, no miners. Got it.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/8/2023 1:15:28 AM
Yeah, no West Virginians there, I suppose. :|

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1797
Joined: 2004
Flood the tunnels
12/8/2023 2:59:00 PM
I can find no information that the flooding has started. Am I missing something?
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/8/2023 5:34:51 PM
Quote:
I can find no information that the flooding has started. Am I missing something?


Hi Larry.

In the video I provided, the 'flooding' portion was shown elsewhere online then used in the video. I suspect, based on the logistics of doing this relies on a large presence of personnel. Transporting and stationing the pumps for extraction and pipelining, requirements of security to secure the pump station area, transmission lines/hoses, tunnel entrance areas, maintenance, etc., may be gigantic thus, it's possible the video was a one off demonstration of system capability.

Honestly, I don't know for sure as information, as you have stated is difficult if not non-existent to obtain right now. The Times of Jerusalem in a report stated there were five (5) such stations. Additional information, and possibly a cause for delaying the pumping is an environmental concern this pumped in sea water will mix with the depleted fresh water aquifer in that area further limiting the availability of fresh water.

Dan


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 815
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/8/2023 8:05:33 PM
So our coverage has shown the IDF corralling and then stripping militants as they fled out of the flooded tunnels, so some success I guess.

Question though, have they written off the surviving hostages that were held captive below ground?
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/9/2023 6:35:05 PM
Quote:
So our coverage has shown the IDF corralling and then stripping militants as they fled out of the flooded tunnels, so some success I guess.

Question though, have they written off the surviving hostages that were held captive below ground?


Answer to your question, no. The Israeli government will not and have not thrown their hostages under the bus like Hamas has with Palestinian citizens, or for that matter at all. The Israeli government and military, as well as the citizens are very aware the hostages are in extreme danger with the war Hamas willingly continues. A failed hostage rescue mission has taken place with a hostage killed during the attempt; there was another raid previous to this that was successful bringing the Israeli hostage back home.

Hamas has an advantage keeping hostages alive, mistreated but alive. As the circle of death closes in on these scumbags, I fear the hostages value decreases, regrettably.

Dan


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 6511
Joined: 2004
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 1:38:34 AM
Quote:
Quote:
So our coverage has shown the IDF corralling and then stripping militants as they fled out of the flooded tunnels, so some success I guess.

Question though, have they written off the surviving hostages that were held captive below ground?


Answer to your question, no. The Israeli government will not and have not thrown their hostages under the bus like Hamas has with Palestinian citizens, or for that matter at all. The Israeli government and military, as well as the citizens are very aware the hostages are in extreme danger with the war Hamas willingly continues. A failed hostage rescue mission has taken place with a hostage killed during the attempt; there was another raid previous to this that was successful bringing the Israeli hostage back home.

Hamas has an advantage keeping hostages alive, mistreated but alive. As the circle of death closes in on these scumbags, I fear the hostages value decreases, regrettably.

Dan




There were Jews facing the Holocaust in WW2 who begged the Allies to bomb the death camps , knowing full well that this would entail the death of the inmates who were awaiting their fate.

I wonder if Netanyahu will evoke this story as he seeks to justify the flooding of tunnels and the intensification of the bombing of Gaza.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 12:36:39 PM
Quote:
There were Jews facing the Holocaust in WW2 who begged the Allies to bomb the death camps , knowing full well that this would entail the death of the inmates who were awaiting their fate.

I wonder if Netanyahu will evoke this story as he seeks to justify the flooding of tunnels and the intensification of the bombing of Gaza.

Regards, Phil


Oof!

IMO, that would be a bad move on his part to do so Phil. Although, Jewish leadership has made comments similar to such but since the bombings of the camps did not occur, and one must ask why not, Netanyahu may know the validity of why not and/or can see that making a bold, blunt comparison would be his downfall as the Jewish families are pounding the tables and doors, bring our families back no matter the cost.

"During a meeting with the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, relatives of the hostages called for the government to prioritize seeking an agreement for their release through diplomatic channels, rather than pressing on with the military offensive in Gaza against Hamas." Overall though, it is Hamas that is preventing the return of hostages and Palestinian criminals/terrorists in these cease fire swaps.

If Israel can eradicate the rat-leadership of Hamas and eradicate they must be, what is the likelihood that the Palestinians and Israel can begin to work toward establishing peace and maybe, maybe a two-state entity?

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3309
Joined: 2007
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 2:20:19 PM
I read today that a poll has come out showing that 20 percent of Americans age 18-29 believe that the Holocaust......was a myth!

That despicable result includes a sampling of people who are either in college and university, or have completed "higher education" in the fairly recent past.

Our US colleges and universities have produced mountains of debt for these young people to be saddled with during much of their productive years...and, at the same time, produced highly educated idiots who can`t even recognize simple truths.

It is stunning.

I also have seen interviews conducted with these young people of college age who partake in the Pro-Palestine protests.....who did not know that "Palestine from the river to the sea" is a genocidal mantra....did not know what river, or what sea....and did not know what took place on October 7!

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 2:56:42 PM
Quote:
I read today that a poll has come out showing that 20 percent of Americans age 18-29 believe that the Holocaust......was a myth!

That despicable result includes a sampling of people who are either in college and university, or have completed "higher education" in the fairly recent past.

Our US colleges and universities have produced mountains of debt for these young people to be saddled with during much of their productive years...and, at the same time, produced highly educated idiots who can`t even recognize simple truths.

It is stunning.

I also have seen interviews conducted with these young people of college age who partake in the Pro-Palestine protests.....who did not know that "Palestine from the river to the sea" is a genocidal mantra....did not know what river, or what sea....and did not know what took place on October 7!

Respects, Morris


Hi Morris.

I have seen the same interviews. It is obvious the educational system across America has been revamped to dumb down student intellect, from kindergarten to college. This has been ongoing for decades now and we are seeing the overall results of uneducated, duped American(?) students in all grade levels. The educators, oh brother, they are more interested in causes than educating and I believe that is so based on the educator’s lack of intellectual capabilities due again to sub-par education requirements.

Back to Israel. In this war, Iran, IMO has been yet again left off the hook by the world community. Without Iranian support of monies and weaponry, Hamas terrorists are garage led thugs, still dangerous though but, the financial support from Iran is reckless for the world to continue to not combat.

The recent foiling of a Iranian terrorist attack in Cyprus is a good example of how combating Iran is a world-wide failure: Two Iranian nationals may face deportation after they were linked to a foiled terror attack against Israelis and Jews in Cyprus, police said on Monday. The two have been in custody since their arrest on November 3, and had two eight-day remands since." “They are now under a remand order for custody and deportation,”

May face deportation!? Why not imprisonment in Cyprus? This is a clear indication, Cypriot officials closing their eyes to the fact that a terrorist attack in Cyprus would most likely have included Cypriots.

Dan


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13552
Joined: 2009
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 3:19:37 PM
The sort of education that teaches about the Holocaust and other genocides must begin in elementary school. So ask your local educational authority how much time is spent on Holocaust studies in what context. It can't be taught if it isn't set aside as a specific area of study.

My province and several others in Canada have just made Holocaust studies an compulsory part of the social studies curriculum in grade six. It was already part of the grade 10 high school history curriculum and that will be expanded.

It doesn't matter much if the educators aren't given the resources and education themselves to teach this part of the curriculum.

So ask whether Holocaust studies are part of the curriculum in your jurisdiction. If not, demand it.

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 5:07:26 PM
Quote:
So ask whether Holocaust studies are part of the curriculum in your jurisdiction. If not, demand it.

George


That does not meet the ideological view educators largely have in America. That is apparent with the college protests supporting the terrorist organization Hamas, egregiously so by the so called "feminists", which I think Rush Limbaugh’s' tattooing of them as "femi-naza's" is more appropriate. Knowing that women are largely more affected by war, the feminists blindly jump up in support of the Palestinians all the while ignoring it was the Palestinians who voted for Hamas and who largely support Hamas.

"the director of the Women’s Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling, a feminist human rights organization in the West Bank city of Ramallah, describes how Israeli policies such as home demolition, movement restrictions, night raids, and child arrests increase the burdens of family and household, reinforcing women’s “traditional roles within the Palestinian patriarchal society.” Coupled with discriminatory laws pertaining to family reunification and marriage and cultural policing by radical Islamists, these policies exaggerate male domination and female dependency and trap women in abusive relationships.["/i]

First point, the Israeli reactions. these demolitions, movement restrictions, night raids, "child arrests" are not done indiscriminately, rather they are done to deter potential attacks, rioting and war. And yes, that does increase the burden on families and households. If these actions are not taken, and even when they are, the burden is shared/passed onto Israeli citizens. Hamas and Iran are the obstacles to lessoning those burdens, but their actions and words clearly have demonstrated they wish not to.

Second point, radical Islamists.

Dan

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1974
Joined: 2010
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 5:30:12 PM
Got yer self a sweeping generalization there.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3271
Joined: 2010
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 6:53:07 PM
I don´t blame the teachers. They do not chose the curriculum or determine the content. That is the school boards who are basically the parents who in most cases are a pain in the butt running in shouting and complaining that their Henry or Henrietta are not idiots or obnoxious little monsters. Well that is the impression I get of the US. Here basically when a kid starts kicking up the parents get dragged up before the Head and not the other way round.

Of course, here in Germany, Holocaust studies are compulsory and Holocaust denial is a criminal offence.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13552
Joined: 2009
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 7:06:52 PM
Trevor, the Canadian Criminal Code now has a provision that makes holocaust denial a crime but I do not know how well it is working.

George
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 13552
Joined: 2009
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 7:11:45 PM
Quote:
That does not meet the ideological view educators largely have in America.


Dan, respectfully, that statement is an unfair generalization and lumps all educators at all levels into one group. The fact that there are protests at universities against Israeli tactics and policies with respect to Palestinians does not mean that all educators in the country have failed to teach the issues properly. In some jurisdictions the topic may not be on the curriculum or the teachers have not been given the tools to teach the subject properly.

As well, it seems to me that in the US at least, any concern expressed for the treatment and fate of the Palestinians is met with a great deal of anger. I also don't believe that a feminist who supports Palestinian concerns has betrayed her cause just because some terrible human beings in Hamas used rape as a weapon of war.

Universities should be places where issues like anti-semitism, anti-Islamism, Israeli policies and Palestinian policies can be discussed in an intelligent way. But it is impossible to do so when people are not dispassionate about the subject.


Cheers,

George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1528
Joined: 2005
Flood the tunnels
12/11/2023 9:49:09 PM
My statement lumps only those who engage in activism, protesting versus educating, and there are plenty of them out there, far too many actually. The Ivy leaguers who displayed themselves this week are just a small sample of who they are, the power they wield, the activism they lead and the word play they engage in.

I have noticed a down trend in information regarding the tunnel flooding. Is it concern of the damage that could be possible to the aquifers or, is the IDF waiting for the discussions to subside or, have they already completed specific flooding's and have moved on? From where I sit, information has dropped significantly.

Tunnel flooding in Gaza is not new, Israel requested and Egypt conducted tunnel flooding in 2015-16, with some success. But again, seems Israel dropped the security ball by not actively going after these tunnels which they, the Egyptians and Palestinians all knew they what they would be used for.

Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford

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