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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 7:33:46 AM
Lionel Shriver is an American woman who resides in Britain and makes discerning comments about the way Anglo American culture has developed.

In yesterday’s TImes, her observations were forcibly delivered in a commentary that occupied an entire page.

Rather than post the whole article, I’ll give a summary of the principal points.

New polling has revealed the extent to which the British have imported the “ fetishistic and self - destructive obsessions of woke America “.

A US YouGov poll revealed that American people have wildly overestimated the size of their country’s racial and sexual minorities. The participants imagined that 41% of American adults were black : the actual figure is 12%.

A counterpart poll in the UK revealed comparable misperceptions. British respondents guessed that 20% of the UK population was black : the true figure , according to the Office for National Statistics, is 3%.

British median guess as to the percentage of Muslim people in the UK was 15% of the adult population ; the true figure is 4%.

In regard to Asians, British people reckon that they comprise 17% of the adult population ; the true figure being 7%.

The aggregate of these three estimates implies that 52% of the entire UK adult population is comprised of ethnic or racial minorities, a fourfold exaggeration of the real number.

These distortions apply to sexual minorities , too. Britons suppose that 5% of their compatriots are transgender, while government estimates suggest the true number to be between 0.3 and 0.6%. British folks think that 10% of their adult population are bisexual, while the real figure is 1.3%. They also reckon that the gay and lesbian population is 15%, as against the actual figure of 1.8%.

British people also exaggerate the number of adults who are vegan or vegetarian by a factor of five : 20% against the actual 4%.

According to Shriver, these distorting perceptions are the product of American left wing obsessions, “ noxious stuff…cooked up in American universities, later to contaminate the full range of our institutions like a Wuhan lab leak.”

She than cites the propensities of British media to uphold these misconceptions.

“ This distortion is more drastic in adverts. A 2019 YouGov study found that 37% of British adverts featured black people.” This, as Shriver points out, was “ pre - Floyd, too, so that figure could have climbed since. So, if you’ve noted that every effort to sell your car insurance looks like a general assembly meeting of the United Nations, that impression isn’t all in your mind.”

Her conclusion :

Maybe it’s a bit boring, but most Britons are still white, still straight, and still eat bacon butties.

“Butties” is an affectionate term for sandwiches.

Now that I’m in my seventieth year, I’ve become more and more dismayed to reflect on how my views are irrelevant, and my points of reference obsolete.

Shriver has explained why.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12348
Joined: 2009
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 7:45:38 AM
Hello Phil,

I'm not quite sure what it is that is bothering you. Perhaps you would explain further.

Is Lionel Shriver suggesting that the overestimation of the numbers of ethnic minorities results in them receiving attention that they don't deserve?

Cheers,

George

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 8:03:17 AM
Hi George,

What bothers me ?

The astonishing degree of misconception, which has allowed a very distorted image to hold sway over public life and encourages people to uphold what someone described as “luxury beliefs”.

It fosters a nasty counter reaction, which is all too apparent in populism .

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 161
Joined: 2020
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 12:02:04 PM
06032022 mikecmaps

Dear Phil,
Geez I usually like what you say. Are you letting yourself fall into reactionary mode, respectfully?
Where’s the military?
But had the chance to keep a young nephew years ago (he is much older now) sometimes he struggled with doing what we asked/expected, I’d think “its tough to be 4”
And I too now 70 often think it’s tough to be 70. The doctor is a teenager and the news anchor too Geez. In California I walk and find someone talking and talking, I do double take and have to think “oh talking on phone”. And young men with “shorts” past the knees and lowered showing a little butt crack, Geez really. And now the style like your PM has hair style intentionally messed up, Geez get a comb please! But yes its more me being the brylcreem generation and get hair cut every couple weeks whether needed or not? (and high and tight)
This side of pond we are mired in culture division please dont copy that over there! Please! My personal definition of woke is being mindful and thoughtful of all cultural groups and though not that comfortable with everyone I may encounter I try to not react without thinking, respectfully. Yeah its tough to be 70.

Mike Collie
mikecmaps
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 7:37:19 PM
Phil, interesting comments. Particularly your conclusion: Quote:
Now that I’m in my seventieth year, I’ve become more and more dismayed to reflect on how my views are irrelevant, and my points of reference obsolete.

Might I offer some thoughts, perhaps contradictory in some instances, from a man in his 80s living on a different continent?

• I am what pollsters now call a “client”, and am offered surveys at least daily, including those from LEO and YouGov. I find it challenging to complete even 50% of them, because they are flawed instruments in so many ways. I could list the issues I find disturbing (including having a survey I’m asked to complete then hold a pre-survey to see if I’m eligible, or on the reverse telling them I do not use/subscribe to “X” and then being asked to rate my experience with “X”).

• I sense that the US lives off poll data to a greater extent than any other nation I know, but that many of their polls assume issues which may be detrimental to accuracy of poll findings. IMHO, e.g., including racial, cultural or other ethnic distinctions as determinors of congressional boundaries not only is based on tendencies but generates separations which have no place in voter districting.

• I have seldom trusted governmental surveys at any level, unless they are conducted at arm’s length.

Those noted, I think you’re getting bad numbers from the YouGov polls, skewed by two factors: their US value system, which sees racial/ethnic as integral to a population; their insistence on answering questions for which you have no answer. And I’m assuming you are getting misrepresentative numbers from whatever government agencies Schriver has taken her data from, because many government databases are based on self-determining responders rather than from random sample.

Try this on for size, Phil. Your own views are dead accurate for your life, and have been most of your life. Now, you may be a rabid “Archie Bunker” for all I know. But that just isn’t the issue. I’m not yet certain what being black and British is meant to tell anyone, except not all British are white. And I’m not sure (as happens in the US) whether you are getting sub-studies concerning levels of robbery, assault and the like based on percentages of blacks in certain areas. Or Welshmen. Or Poles. Or estate-livers. Or whatever.

I know nothing about Lionel Shriver, and have no concept of her reputation. But I would argue that, from wherever you drew the data of her article, she’s done nobody a service. Let your mind tell her to piss off, and get on getting on.

Just as a slight aside, I was having a discussion with the dregs (three of us) of my Friday pub bunch about things that impact popular success. Someone (originally from Wales) noted that there was a fine US actor who was accused of being bi-sexual. Person Two (a British African) said, “So, are you saying we condemn a man for enjoying both beer and wine?”

Don’t let them jerk you around, Phil. Ask yourself how important the percentage of whatever groups are to you. I will admit that the number of black people in my neighbourhood (I know of three) has had not had an impact on my skin colour. YadYadaYada.

IMHO, you need have no issues concerning any of the issues raised. They’re writing about issues to which you are not compelled to respond.

BTW, how did this get posted to “Current Day Military Thread?

Cheers,
Brian G

PS: I am recognized as a “complainer”. Gee willikers, are my comments about YouGov or government data collection capabilities seen as complaints?. If so, I have to go and scrub the mud off my petticoats! :o
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian W
Atlanta GA USA
Posts: 1187
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 8:49:35 PM
I agree with you Phil. It's become crazy nutty and people are pushing back against it in droves. I just hate that our society/societies swing so dramatically to and fro.
The problem with the US is we have no central party. And it's tearing us apart. And we're unfortunately bringing a lot of the world along for the ride during these 4 years.
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"Take it easy. But take it" - Tom Morello's mom.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12348
Joined: 2009
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/3/2022 9:21:04 PM
Hello Phil, does the UK government publish accurate statistics with respect to diversity? If so, then why would the general public be quoting statistics that are wildly incorrect? I am still a little confused over your original post, I guess.

Living in a country with a declining birth rate and with the imminent retirements of vast numbers of workers, it is critical that we bring in newcomers. I won't deny that for the pale faces who consider themselves as unhyphenated Canadians and descendants of the founding cultures, it is sometimes difficult to see a sea of faces who are all speaking either their own language or heavily accented English. One feels rather insignificant when those situations arise and I would imagine that a person from a visible minority would feel that way much more often than I do.

I think that there is an irrational internal reaction to those who are dissimilar to one's self which makes one think that these people are a threat the existence of the original cultures. They are not but it is disconcerting to see people whose cultural habits are so different. Do those behaviours marginalize me as a white Canadian in this country? I don't sense that even if I feel awkward at times in certain situations where I have become the minority at the party.

The hope here in Canada is that we can see the newcomers as additions to the Canadian mosaic, a tapestry of colours and cultures. That is the party line and I do try to adhere to it, believe it and to consign my periodic frustrations with the habits of newcomers to the recesses of my brain.

We don't have much choice. We are a diverse culture of cultures under a Canadian umbrella.

Here is what I do know from having taught teenagers whose parents were immigrants to this country. They are not really dissimilar to their friends born of parents from the founding cultures. It gives me hope that we all can get along.

And I do understand your frustrations, Phil.

Cheers,

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 3:27:44 AM
Thanks for these replies, friends.

Perhaps it’s as well that my outlook is obsolete and irrelevant: I can’t even post in the correct section of the forum !

Apologies…….my sense of agitation got the better of me, and I wrote in a hurry, without checking properly. And Brian G is right : I should be more circumspect about the provenance of the sources cited in Shriver’s article.

In a sense, though - and this is heartfelt, not just an attempt to make my points legitimate - there is a tie up with the military here.

I honestly believe that Putin sensed that our Western democracies, basking in a virtue seeking liberalism, have lost the plot, and have become so distracted by culture wars and identity politics that they’re ripe for the onslaught. Didn’t he actually say something to that effect a year or two ago ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3028
Joined: 2010
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 6:15:31 AM
Phil,

Don´t worry about ranting. It´s what we old guys are supposed to do. It´s our last job and role. I seem to recall there was a similar rant written on a Babylonian Tele from 2,000 BC (honestly !). My father, and father-in-law, were pretty good at it. My kids and grandchildren say I am as well.

Quote:
I honestly believe that Putin sensed that our Western democracies, basking in a virtue seeking liberalism, have lost the plot, and have become so distracted by culture wars and identity politics that they’re ripe for the onslaught. Didn’t he actually say something to that effect a year or two ago ?


No, that was Lebedev Senior. But basically every western democracy has been saying that since at least 1815.

Trevor

Edit. I dont think Putin sensed it but played a role in creating it.
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 3:25:18 PM
Hi Phil,

If that is what you think is a rant in Britain we in the US would call a polite observation. I remember being in college in the late 80s and looking around at folks wearing tie dye tee shirts and socks with birkenstock sandals in the winter looking sad that they missed the 60s they would protest certain things but did not get alot of attention because at the time the civil rights war was thought won and times were good not saying society at the time was fair or perfect for all but some of those tie dye wearing folks were also my friends they always had Marijuana and were just nice liberal minded folks that wouldn't hurt a fly. My politics were different but we could hang out discuss things we were young and I think we either knew we knew it all or we thought we knew nothing I cant remember. My point is we could hang out there was passion but no anger, there was respect and we had good times.. real good times. I dont know when or where people started to get angry and stopped talking to each other and when demonization started and woke ideology started where your either woke or your broke. After college I became to busy with work and life to be able to point when and where society started to get as polarized as it is today, I stopped paying attention for awhile. Im not sure if governments, Universities, social media, societies woes with more and more severe income inequality or a combination of it all has contributed to this anger but I do know that if you skew statistics, scream, yell and demonize your own countrymen you wont get what you want you wont change opinion and you will only reap what you sow. Id like to think the many liberal minded folks I chose to hang out with in my earlier years (and still do somewhat) softened my conservative views and if I chose to constantly hang around with like minded folks that did not challenge my world views I would be very much less for it. I feel sorry for the youth today groupthink is a horrible corrosive phenomena it causes camps and societal destruction.

I do think though there is a shift coming though for the better and while Putin may have thought this was his chance because the west is in such disarray the west is still 100 times stronger than that gangster and I think he committed suicide by invading Ukraine, his country and Putin himself were in a slow death before now that process has been accelerated and all done because one side had all the power with no internal debate about whether or not to go to war in Ukraine and all dissenters concerning the war young and old rounded up arrested and called traitors to the Motherland while the precious young of Russian youth is slaughtered in a war of ego and paranoia. The direct result of groupthink, demonization of different opinion of a cliff diving nation heading into the abyss.

Anyway Phill I got 18 years till 70 after these last 6 or seven years I feel 80 and just as irrelevant.

your bud

vpatrick
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nuts
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 5:32:59 PM
Thanks, Vin.

There’s a lot of sincerity and immense power in what you say.

You get to the heart of the matter , like Lincoln did at Gettysburg.

Regards, Phil


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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 6:50:00 PM
Hi Phil

Thank You

Thats a great compliment from someone I respect so much


vpatrick
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nuts
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/4/2022 7:07:10 PM
Trevor, thank you for this: Quote:
Don´t worry about ranting. It´s what we old guys are supposed to do. It´s our last job and role. I seem to recall there was a similar rant written on a Babylonian Tele from 2,000 BC (honestly !). My father, and father-in-law, were pretty good at it. My kids and grandchildren say I am as well.

When I turned 70, I was invited to share my birthday at a friend’s home. It was a kindness I accepted happily. I was told later that the wife of the couple (born and raised in Canada, but with German as a first language) had learned that 70 introduces the age of wisdom in a person. Their job, therefore, was to advise, assess and comment on flaws in their younger family.

This might have been a package of bilge, of course, but that was the story I was told.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3028
Joined: 2010
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/5/2022 10:46:01 AM
Brian,

Still got 4 years to go. There´s a Berlin saying I like about old age "Oben klar; untern dicht" which loosely translates as " As long as up is open and down is closed then you are alright"

Also something I´ve noticed about getting old. My eyesight gets worse but I can see better through the bullshit.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3028
Joined: 2010
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/5/2022 4:07:04 PM
Quote:
Trevor, thank you for this: Quote:
Don´t worry about ranting. It´s what we old guys are supposed to do. It´s our last job and role. I seem to recall there was a similar rant written on a Babylonian Tele from 2,000 BC (honestly !). My father, and father-in-law, were pretty good at it. My kids and grandchildren say I am as well.

When I turned 70, I was invited to share my birthday at a friend’s home. It was a kindness I accepted happily. I was told later that the wife of the couple (born and raised in Canada, but with German as a first language) had learned that 70 introduces the age of wisdom in a person. Their job, therefore, was to advise, assess and comment on flaws in their younger family.

This might have been a package of bilge, of course, but that was the story I was told.

Cheers
Brian G


Brian,

The Anthropologists teach that individual human development goes through stages based on 7 years. Hence, 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, and 70. This is perhaps what she meant.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian W
Atlanta GA USA
Posts: 1187
Joined: 2004
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/5/2022 8:45:26 PM
I'm about to reach the 56 point next year! Crud!
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"Take it easy. But take it" - Tom Morello's mom.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Forgive the rant : this gets me really agitated !
6/5/2022 8:54:56 PM
At 52 Im the baby! Yes!
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nuts

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