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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)
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mikecmaps
CAMARILLO CA USA
Posts: 161
Joined: 2020
Russian Chinese collusion
4/2/2022 2:09:55 PM

Group,

“people will believe anything they are fed which goes unchallenged”;
“as much as those in the West who want to believe what they’re being fed”

Rather smacks of “shoot the messenger”

“people will believe anything they are fed” no not true. A glittering generalization so broad as to be uncreditable.
One of the good things of current digital media is very many broad POV, if we seek them out.
Yes, bad one thing is the corporatization of media and market demand for 24 hours of “news” stories 365 days the year.
So yes on slow news day human stories become 70-80% of news. But if one takes responsibility to read/see broad range
of sources and learn about who is reporting and find at least 2-3 sources for same reporting its really not difficult to filter info
if one wishes to inform oneself. In that sense not much has really changed in 60+ years. Most of us used to read at least 2-3 papers
a day/week and watch the big three news shows. Plus maybe couple of local TV news reports, that gave some varied perspective.
Responsible news consumers then, same as now, sought out good sources and weren’t “fed.”
To be “fed” is a voluntary response not necessarily entirely the feeder’s fault if we submit to it. Admittedly many do submit

respectfully, Mike_C
mikecmaps
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Russian Chinese collusion
4/2/2022 4:30:25 PM
Imagine trying to get through your last days and a war lands on your doorstep literally, thats all the news I need to see to feel the way I do, I dont need to compare or contrast news sources Ill find the ones that hate Putin, its when I find stuff like this (video I posted) that makes my blood boil. Putin had no intention to pursue diplomacy or talks this war was his intention all along (So Hitler like) Russia was not provoked, there were no Ukrainian terror attacks on Russian soil just an imperfect Ukraine (every country is imperfect to some extent) that did not want to be a similar Russian satellite like Belarus. Putin attacked, killed and invaded because he knew they never going to woo the Ukrainians just by the benefits realized if they were in the Russian orbit so time to kill if the the Ukrainians aint buying the benefits. The Ukrainian elderly, children, infirm and the most vulnerable are the ones paying the highest price because the war is being waged by a sloppy incompetent army that needs to level a city from afar and could care less of how many civilian casualties it takes to subdue it and for what? What? How will Russia benefit from this its incomprehensible? So I have read all I can read about why this happened and my conclusion is only monsters would unleash this level of violence.

Sorry was initially just going to post the video with a couple of quick comments but a rant ensued. Just angers me to the core that with all that history we have about invasions even recent US invasions and the horror they unleash it still happens. I hope Russia pays the price for its idiocy and the world is able to learn another lesson of the cost of such violence without any apocalyptic like ending of this asinine war.

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vpatrick


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nuts
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/4/2022 5:46:46 AM
Repeating what I’ve just written on another thread in this section :

Imagine Moscow as the new Mogadishu

A sobering thought.

If we succeed in punishing the Russians - and I’m in favour of this, to put it mildly - what price might we all pay if the Russian Federation becomes another “failed state” ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 177
Joined: 2010
Russian Chinese collusion
4/4/2022 10:58:17 AM
Quote:
Repeating what I’ve just written on another thread in this section :

Imagine Moscow as the new Mogadishu

A sobering thought.

If we succeed in punishing the Russians - and I’m in favour of this, to put it mildly - what price might we all pay if the Russian Federation becomes another “failed state” ?

Regards, Phil


Phil,

That is an interesting thought. I'm reminded of a comment by a high school teacher many decades ago. She told the class that analogies can be misleading as no two events are exactly alike. She was not against using them just that we had to be careful and understand the differences. Russia is not Somalia and Moscow is not Mogadishu. What we are more likely to see is Putin replaced by another authoritarian leader. Russia should be severely punished for its invasion of Ukraine. However, we all need to be careful that we don't carry that punishment too far.

Gary
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12348
Joined: 2009
Russian Chinese collusion
4/4/2022 11:13:27 AM
Good point by Gary. How much is too much punishment?

The west has indicated that it will not cross the line to send troops to Ukraine but should the Russian state fail and the people be convinced that they are besieged on all sides, will the extremists in the government and the military be willing to press the nuclear button as an act of vengeance. That would be ironic given that we are all unwilling to take action in Ukraine that could provoke an nuclear exchange and yet we may engage in other actions that could be construed as equally provocative.

Still I remain hopeful that the Russian people are not crazy. When the world came so close to a nuclear exchange during the Cuban Missile Crisis it was that shoe banging President Nikita Khrushchev who realized that events were escalating beyond control and he came to an accord with JFK that allowed both to save face. Hopefully, there are others in Russia with wisdom who will not allow Putin to head down the nuclear rabbit hole.

Cheers,

George
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/4/2022 8:25:13 PM
Quote:
That is an interesting thought. I'm reminded of a comment by a high school teacher many decades ago. She told the class that analogies can be misleading as no two events are exactly alike. She was not against using them just that we had to be careful and understand the differences. Russia is not Somalia and Moscow is not Mogadishu. What we are more likely to see is Putin replaced by another authoritarian leader. Russia should be severely punished for its invasion of Ukraine. However, we all need to be careful that we don't carry that punishment too far.

Phil, interesting extension of Gary’s point. All blessings on the head of any high school teacher who could offer a teen any concept that might remain with him for more than 40 years. I guess she took a classics degree, and knew her Heraclitus (“You can’t step in the same stream twice.”). Churchill, of course – and others, I’m certain – said something like “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

Yesterday was the anniversary of the enactment of the Marshall Plan, IMHO one of the finer actions to come out of the aftermath of WW2. Amongst other things, it quit punishing a nation for a controlling government’s horror. I hope, when the current insanity in Ukraine ends, that whatever post-war policies are brought into place by whichever side is be victorious (and it could be both, since the West has done a good job of adopting a surrogate war as one they will sit in judgment on) remember how negative punitive measures were against Germany post-WW1, and how only the Marshall Plan saved the same negative outcome – or (watch your toes in Heraclitus’ stream) something similar – from happening in 1948. Do we really want to SNAFU again? There are so many ways to get the end of this war wrong!

Let’s face it, right now the Ukraine War looks much like the Spanish Civil War (I note your implied warning, Phil! ). Lots of talk, but little official support from the West for a legal Spanish government. I’m not going to push this, but today I found a badge, decal or sticker for “The International Brigade/Ukraine”. I know that Canadians, Brits and US folks have headed off to fight; I can only assume people are signing up from other nations, particularly in Europe, to stop those who want to return the new Ukraine to the status of the Ukrainian SSR.

George, I’ve gotta admit I feel better concerning nuclear threats than I did 10 days ago. What I find silly is that with a world total of some 5,000+ nuclear missiles (that’s just missiles, not weapons) we should ever have thought the nuclear threat was no longer an issue. The Doomsday Clock remains within a tick or two of Armageddon, and every leader who has control of nukes is aware of it. Most accept their nuclear burden with humility. Until recently, I thought Mr Putin was too well trained to press such a button. But maybe I’ve had it wrong for some time. Maybe his KGB training taught him about cause and effect but not action and reaction. There is a difference.

For now, at least, I’m going to give more credit to Russian government structure than you seem to wish. I’m not totally aware that there are “extremists in the government and the miltary” who have access to or control of nuclear release codes. I’m also going to suggest that if things go South for Russia in the current Ukraine conflict, the status quo will change in economic ways but not in terms of national security as such. The West imposes sanctions because the west sees power in dollar terms, or consumer terms, or product terms. I’m not sure that isn’t just a reflection of US values, or that the West is totally wrong in thinking such sanctions cut to the heart of most other nations.

I could go on … I can always go on. I’m interested in end-of-the-war solutions. I’m also wondering why folks believe it’s a good idea to punish a large nation for the viciousness of its leadership.

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/5/2022 5:21:41 AM
Brian,

This thread is like watching that seventy year old film High Noon !

This is the only time that I’ve re read an entire thread of this size - now into nine pages - and my goodness, it’s worthy of the same phenomenal “ real time” attribute that so distinguished that beautiful old movie.

It’s rather self indulgent, I suppose, to read how we’ve developed our perceptions and reactions : I was certainly finding it hard to believe that Putin would do this , and I was not alone.


You allude to my implied Spanish Civil War warning : I note that I made an explicit analogy with the Spanish Civil War, somewhere in the 6th page.

You’ll forgive me, I hope , Brian, if I admit to getting a bit agitated by your suggestion that the victors of 1919 treated the Germans too harshly.

Imagine the reaction of the French and Belgian people who had endured the onslaught of 1914 and the ensuing four years. Indeed, another thing that I can’t help thinking is how the German invasion of Belgium in 1914 bears comparison with the Russian attack on Ukraine : a hubristic military High Command, determined to get something done in a frantic hurry, was confounded by unexpectedly fierce resistance that confounded assumptions and led to terrible atrocities . Not Babi Yar, of course, but not to be underrated : several thousand Belgian civilians were killed in systematic massacres. The German people were allowed to believe that their army had not been defeated. Germany herself was virtually unscathed. It took a complete pulverisation of Germany in 1945 before the Marshall Plan could work its magic. I’ll suggest that in the aftermath of WW1 the Germans got a bit of a free pass....... and now I’ll duck !

It was, I suppose, a settlement that fell between two stools : it left unfinished business and was harsh in one sense and indulgent in another.

God knows where we’re going this time.

What will the Chinese do ? Use Putin and drop him like a sack of shit when he’s served his purpose ? If Moscow does become a kind of Mogadishu, I reckon the Chinese will be into that region like a rat up a drainpipe , and that’s without mentioning Taiwan.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
john hayward
Keene NH USA
Posts: 921
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/5/2022 7:33:11 AM
Phil

I think Pershing wanted to march the AEF down Unter den Linden in Berlin to show the Germans they lost. Yes the Versailles Treaty left a lot of things undone.

I'm getting a little tired of "Our Thoughts and Prayers" going to Ukraine. I feel when this is all said in done, nothing will have been done. Putin and Russia must be held accountable but will they? If Putin is ousted, what then? I don't think he can "win" but might be able to settle for something that he can claim he "won" What ever the outcome he has destabilized Ukraine by mass destruction and killings. If the Western Powers have any back bone and show it, Ukraine will look west not east.

Sometimes it is not enough to call a skunk, a skunk. Calling Putin a war criminal is all well and good but without really doing something, it becomes just words.

Sorry for the random wanderings but I'm angry about those in the West who are praising Putin, even in a backhanded way. Until Putin sees an united, forceful front in the West, I fear he will continue his ways.

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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/7/2022 12:51:28 PM
Some harrowing footage of Russian prisoners being knee capped by Ukrainian captors is doing the rounds. The New York Post has put some out which I've seen on my iPhone.

Ukrainian claims that they're fake strike me as unconvincing.

What do you reckon ?

Regards, Phil






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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GaryNJ
Cumberland NJ USA
Posts: 177
Joined: 2010
Russian Chinese collusion
4/7/2022 1:19:24 PM
Phil,

I would not be surprised that the shooting of Russian soldiers is true. There has to be a tremendous amount of hatred toward the Russian soldiers for what they have done and are still doing to the Ukraine.

Gary
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/7/2022 3:48:38 PM
Quote:
Phil,

I would not be surprised that the shooting of Russian soldiers is true. There has to be a tremendous amount of hatred toward the Russian soldiers for what they have done and are still doing to the Ukraine.

Gary


Heated agreement with you there, Gary !

All the same, the sights and sounds are an abomination.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1508
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/7/2022 5:17:01 PM
Quote:
Some harrowing footage of Russian prisoners being knee capped by Ukrainian captors is doing the rounds. The New York Post has put some out which I've seen on my iPhone.

Ukrainian claims that they're fake strike me as unconvincing.

What do you reckon ?

Regards, Phil







War and hatred breed crime's and vicious acts against civilians and POW's . If true it's just beyond sick that videos were taken in the first place and then put on the internet.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5653
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/8/2022 8:39:41 AM
More horrors coming to light : a lethal missile strike on a train station, killing and wounding hundreds of civilians trying to get away.

One hundred and forty people confined to a small cellar for many days, while a dozen perished there......brings to mind the legend of the “ Black Hole of Calcutta “ that I was taught about when I was a child.

Striking admission by Dmitry Peskov, Kremlin spokesman, that Russian casualties have been significant and tragic. Why’s he saying this now ?

My take is that, in order to counter the view that the Russians are barbaric bullies, he’s anxious to emphasise that they’re hurting too ; could it be that this is a pre-emptive justification before an even more monstrous onslaught on the Donbas gets underway ?


Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1056
Joined: 2005
Russian Chinese collusion
4/8/2022 12:44:07 PM
Quote:
Striking admission by Dmitry Peskov, Kremlin spokesman, that Russian casualties have been significant and tragic. Why’s he saying this now ?

My take is that, in order to counter the view that the Russians are barbaric bullies, he’s anxious to emphasise that they’re hurting too ; could it be that this is a pre-emptive justification before an even more monstrous onslaught on the Donbas gets underway ?


Regards, Phil



I say YES indeed! that this is a ploy of stating Russian casualties in the attempt of gaining empathy to justify another series of strikes to occur. Putin is a dangerous man, has been all his life. IMO, expect the unexpected from him.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1056
Joined: 2005
Russian Chinese collusion
4/8/2022 2:24:07 PM
"Freedom of Russia Legion". Captured Russian soldiers speaking about fighting with Ukrainian forces against Russian forces.

[Read More]

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/8/2022 8:01:39 PM
Dan, that is some footage. How much to you think it an be trusted?

Not a flippant question. UATV, from which the footage was taken, is at least partially if not fully funded by the Ukrainian government. Computer translation devices translate according to what they are programmed to equate with, after all. Hell, we almost hear some repeated phrases from the testimony of the two Russian prisoners, though it’s cut off rather abruptly.

This has become a war of propaganda on both sides, so we are being deluged with material that is often only half-true. I’m not suggesting it isn’t violent, destructive, vicious enough just with battle, but I worry about the disconnect between what might be legitimate battle destruction, which to some extent I would suggest has been turned into a few things it is not, and what might be systematic punishment of civilians under Russian military control. One is harsh and destructive, but may simply be what war is about. The other is beyond the pale of war, and suggests even before the propaganda machine starts working that Russian military practices are at best unconcerned with human rights.

Dan, to you and Gary, Larry, Phil and John, I’ve tried repeatedly to jump into your discussion, which I think is challenging.

I’ve stopped watching scenes of combat or of atrocities or of missile assault or the like. Visuals are powerful conveyers of information, but they are are also incredible manipulators, when effectively edited. So I’m still having trouble with the views of many MHOers, I’m interested in offering comments about issues being raised.

E.g., knee-capping is vicious, ugly and punishing. But it’s also something you only do to an enemy once you’ve defeated him, as punishment. It’s not a combat wound. Yet many on MHO seem to support this, or explain it away, or justify it as understandable. IMHO, knee-capping is understandable but not justified. Fighting the enemy is a definition of war; deliberately maiming captives warrants a definition similar to labels being laid on any Russian action against Ukranian civilians.

I would hate to be one of the Russian military who was first committed to “saving” the Ukraine from the fascists and nationalistic Nazis who were enslaving the country and in particular assaulting ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Told they were on a mission of liberation, why wouldn’t they see any signs of opposition (military or civilian) as the Nazi subjugators they had been told to expect and defeat. This doesn’t justify the evident brutalities inflicted on Ukrainian civilians, but it might suggest a motivation.

I’m on the side of Ukraine. But I’m trying to maintain some distance about the conflict at hand. I think too many folks are buying into propaganda. We call ourselves military historians. Why don’t we look at this current conflict as historians?

Cheers.
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Russian Chinese collusion
4/9/2022 4:00:17 PM
I posted this video of an interview between Sean Penn and Sean Hannity not because I like Sean Hannity because I dont, while I share more of Hannity's views (not all by any means his coverage of the Iraq war was a disgrace and he obnoxiously talks over his guests) views than Sean Penn's I liked the conversation. It gave me hope that two diametrically opposed people can sit down and have a conversation, put down their differences for a moment and talk without screaming over each other and agree on what matters most, the support of Ukraine for the greater good other than scoring idiotic partisan political points. Hannity did try to score some political points but not as obnoxious as usual Sean Penn would not bite and Sean Penn definitely was the adult in the room and I have a greater respect for him because of this interview. There is something to be said for Hollywood folks that dont virtue signal while holding one of their many awards on one of their many award ceremony stages but actually go into the world and try to make a difference on the ground and with some risk to themselves, while I may not believe in all of Penn's endeavors I believe he is a serious, sincere person that is greatly concerned about humanity.


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vpatrick
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nuts
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3024
Joined: 2007
Russian Chinese collusion
4/9/2022 4:48:33 PM
Sean Penn fully supported the communist dictator Hugo Chavez....he is a moron!
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Russian Chinese collusion
4/9/2022 5:27:34 PM
"Sean Penn fully supported the communist dictator Hugo Chavez....he is a moron!"


Sean Hannity called everyone that disagreed with the Iraq War a traitor he can be considered a moron, everything is a little more nuanced than it looks, we are just people with views right or wrong they must be discussed to dismiss someone as moron is moronic. I try read about people I disagree with and try to figure out their motivation its easy to call someone a moron, but I wonder if you know anything about Venezuela? Or what what went on there or is just easy to snipe? I have no idea what went on in Venezuela and Chavez seems to be a dictator but do you know exactly why Penn went down there or do just read the first headline and decide. This world is getting very close to blowing up and to assume someone is a moron without any digging is why we are in the mess we are in. I was never a Sean Penn fan either or Chavez and maybe Im easily impressed and emotional but I do know until we stop labelling each other and coming to quick conclusions without discussion and investigation we are a doomed nation.

vpatrick
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nuts
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1056
Joined: 2005
Russian Chinese collusion
4/9/2022 6:55:13 PM
Authentic? Well I cannot validate that though murmurs elsewhere speaks of some credence to this units validity. I doubt its a rather large unit and their impact may be nothing more than a propaganda tool.

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3024
Joined: 2007
Russian Chinese collusion
4/10/2022 12:04:41 PM
vpat....I know that Chavez was a dictator...the Chavez family bled Venezuela dry...they stole billions of dollars from a people who are condemned to poverty and hunger.....and I know that Penn and Danny Glover and Bernie Saunders supported the thief....praised his leadership...in in so doing proved themselves to be morons in the process. I`m not assuming anything Patrick!

I know that, if a Venezuelan held the position that Chavez was a crook and a corrupt dictator...and that Penn and Glover were propping up a monster...that person would rot in prison for even TRYING to have a discussion about that!
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/10/2022 10:52:51 PM
VP, interesting redirection of the thread. IIUC, Sean Penn is an actor of some talent who stars in rather silly fantasies. I’ve not seen any movie he’s in. IIUC, he is also a rather arrogant SOB prepared to ignore or violate national laws for his own whims; something about bring unvetted dogs into Australia, which caused a fuss. I didn’t follow that bit of arrogant nonsense. And IIUC he and his former lady are still in court over issues of violence. I thought that was all over, but saw a note about hearings on one of my daily sites only this morning.

I agree he has a right to assess any political/social/philosophical issue he pleases. He has the funds to travel to do so; he has the self-assurance to think his opinion is important.

I simply don’t believe he is important enough, or intelligent enough, or valuable enough to give a rat’s ass what he thinks. Seriously, it isn’t whether I agree or disagree with him. My point is, who cares what Sean Penn supports? I don’t think his acting credentials make his political opinion meaningful.

I’m not one of those who believe entertainers have no right to express their political/social opinions. They do. I’m not suggesting they are too stupid to have political opinions: hello Ronald Reagan; hello Arnold. And, of course, hello Volodymyr Zelensky. To be honest, I simply don’t see Sean Penn in the same circle of political activists. So I’m not following his issues.

I will, if I may, raise one detail which has been irking me for the past six weeks or so. President Zelensky is not a comedian, but a satirist; his success came acting in a political satire, rather than a soap or sitcom.

Cheers,
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2252
Joined: 2020
Russian Chinese collusion
4/11/2022 4:14:21 PM
Brian, Morris,

I just thought it was interesting to see two people who dont even trust one another because their opinions are so far apart attempt to have a discussion its rare in this country, if anything at least I got both of you (Brian and Morris) to kind of agree on something by not caring what Sean Penn has to say as well, Ill call it a win.

vpatrick
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nuts
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/11/2022 4:43:22 PM

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2004
Russian Chinese collusion
4/11/2022 4:43:34 PM
dup
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
kaii
Oslo  Norway
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2010
Russian Chinese collusion
4/14/2022 4:02:22 PM
Quote:
Brian, Morris,

I just thought it was interesting to see two people who dont even trust one another because their opinions are so far apart attempt to have a discussion its rare in this country, if anything at least I got both of you (Brian and Morris) to kind of agree on something by not caring what Sean Penn has to say as well, Ill call it a win.

vpatrick


I had dinner with Sean Penn (and a few others) in Kyiv a few weeks back. Not sure what he was actually doing there but nice enough fellow to share bread with.

Dont think I would have him as Foreign Secretary though.

K
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"They tried to bury us - but did not realise that we are seeds." -Volodymyr Zelenskiy, President of Ukraine
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