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(1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Western Theater)
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1015
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 7:51:22 AM

From the Bangor Daily Whig and Courier. Bangor Maine. August 29,1863.


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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2811
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 9:37:19 AM

Makes you realize why it is that Sherman accused newspaper reporters of being "nothing more than spies who report camp gossip" and that he would shoot them all as being spies if not for his conviction that there would be " news from Hell by breakfast."

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 2:33:33 PM

Quote:
Makes you realize why it is that Sherman accused newspaper reporters of being "nothing more than spies who report camp gossip" and that he would shoot them all as being spies if not for his conviction that there would be " news from Hell by breakfast."

Respects, Morris



Sherman made some very pithy comments, didn’t he, Morris ?

Heartily loathed by so many southerners , he yet endowed the folklore of the Civil War with some choice quotes.

He used the word “Hell” a lot in these sayings....he once remarked that, given the choice between living in Hell or Texas, he would choose to live in Hell and rent Texas !

As for the outlandish claims of this newspaper article about Pemberton, the only mitigation I can summon up is the fact that duelling and vengeance killing did account for the deaths of two high ranking officers in the western theatre : “Bull” Nelson and Earl Van Dorn.

Pemberton was a candidate by virtue of his treachery....was he Pennsylvanian ?

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 297
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 10:48:28 PM

Am I missing something with this story?

John Clifford Pemberton of Vicksburg infamy died in 1881, not in 1863. He was a native
Pennsylvanian and is buried in Philadelphia.

Best Regards,

Greg
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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2811
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 11:03:09 PM

Greg, it`s the kind of ace reporting that caused some papers to scream out that Longstreet was killed at Gettysburg , or that Gettysburg was great confederate victory!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 297
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/29/2020 11:44:20 PM

Quote:
Greg, it`s the kind of ace reporting that caused some papers to scream out that Longstreet was killed at Gettysburg , or that Gettysburg was great confederate victory!

Respects, Morris

Ah, okay. Fake news existed even in the 1860s. Wasn't there a Union report in the Official Records that
indicated Jubal Early had been captured?

Best Regards,

Greg
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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/30/2020 2:08:52 AM

Quote:
Greg, it`s the kind of ace reporting that caused some papers to scream out that Longstreet was killed at Gettysburg , or that Gettysburg was great confederate victory!

Respects, Morris


Morris,

Was the claim of Longstreet’s death at Gettysburg a case of mistaken identity ? Another high ranking confederate officer - Barksdale (?) - who died was genuinely thought to have been the First Corps commander.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2811
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/30/2020 11:34:49 AM

Phil, I am sure that it was probably a confusion of Longstreet with some other person....perhaps Barksdale.

A "fake news" story where a conclusion was jumped to and reported in the papers. It reminds me of when Stonewall Jackson`s wife arrived at Guinea Station and saw a fresh grave...she jumped to the conclusion that her husband was already dead. It was another General ( Paxton I believe) who had been temporarily buried until his family could arrange to have him taken home for burial.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 297
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/30/2020 12:13:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Greg, it`s the kind of ace reporting that caused some papers to scream out that Longstreet was killed at Gettysburg , or that Gettysburg was great confederate victory!

Respects, Morris


Morris,

Was the claim of Longstreet’s death at Gettysburg a case of mistaken identity ? Another high ranking confederate officer - Barksdale (?) - who died was genuinely thought to have been the First Corps commander.

Regards, Phil

Phil,

I've always understood the Longstreet "death" story emanating from Gettysburg was
confused with Barksdale or Armistead.

Greg
----------------------------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/30/2020 12:38:29 PM

Odd, isn’t it ? Longstreet wrote in his memoirs that he wished a yankee shell had put him away at Gettysburg....he was so mortified at the responsibility he bore in ordering Pickett to go forward....and he survived the debacle.

He came closest to death ten months later when friendly fire in the Wilderness put him out of action at almost exactly the same place and in almost exactly the same manner and circumstances that had put paid to Jackson almost exactly one year earlier, and, in both cases, at a triumphant moment . You wouldn’t make that up, would you ?

Pemberton must have felt the burden of surrendering Vicksburg.....it’s all too understandable that there were rumours about his death at the hands of a true Southerner.

I wonder if Pat Cleburne actually expected to die when he said “ If we are to die, let us die like men ! “ before he took his division forward at Franklin.

When you think about the Western battles, it’s striking that AS Johnston and McPherson, both Army commanders, were killed in battle. Polk was a Corps commander, and a yankee shell did for him . The record of Franklin speaks for itself. High command in the West was toxic, and dangerous, too.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 297
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/30/2020 3:45:44 PM

I think (?) I've narrowed it down.

The earliest reference I can locate the Longstreet death story comes from the "Muscatine Evening Journal" (Muscatine, Iowa) of 7/3/1863.

"Prisoners report Longstreet killed and this seems to be confirmed by later intelligence."

"Longstreet is reported to have been killed on Thursday. Another report says he was wounded and is a prisoner.

"Gen. Barksdale, of the rebel army, is killed and his body is in our possession."

The above should rule out Armistead, mortally wounded July 3rd; he died in captivity July 5th.

Perhaps Barksdale was confused w/Longstreet, but both men are reported in the same account. It
appears the Muscatine paper got its feed from the Harrisburg paper; the Times & Herald papers of
New York city; and the Washington Star.

I suspect misinformation put out by Confederate POWs probably contributed to the story.

I could only imagine the intelligence pouring in and the publishers being anxious to get out
the "news" to a hungry audience !

Best Regards,

Greg

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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/31/2020 1:57:01 AM

Greg and Morris, and , of course , Larry,

Do you think that the reporting of war news in the West was more susceptible to sensationalism than it was in the East ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 8/31/2020 3:26:52 PM

Following from that question, I’m reflecting and beginning to convince myself that the presence of Lee in the Eastern Theatre kept press hyperbole at bay. It certainly quelled the toxicity that raged in the CSA military hierarchy in the West.

Lee, I reckon, had that skill to remove trouble makers....DH Hill, albeit a superb combat officer, was discreetly shoved aside. I’m even wondering whether the impact of Lee made the Northern press more restrained and stifled some sensationalism....although , heaven knows, there was ample scope for sensationalism in the very actions and effectiveness of Lee’s generalship. The Battle of Gettysburg itself attests....a dramatic and momentous episode in the war. There was no need to embellish it. When I think of the impact on the people of Pennsylvania, the thing was truly existential, and bore as heavily on them as the Battle of Britain on the people of my country in 1940.

Bearing this in mind, I feel that some of the newspaper accounts that Larry has furnished suggest a remarkable degree of sobriety when it comes to Gettysburg.

How, I wonder, might the accounts of the Western battles compare with their Eastern counterparts in this respect ?

A request for you, Larry : would you be willing and able to pitch some newspaper articles, both Northern and Southern, alluding to the Battles of Fredericksburg and Stones River/Murfreesboro ? Fought at a particularly dark time of the war for the Union, it would be interesting to see how they were depicted and whether there was a discernible difference in the attributes of sensationalism.

Was there a markedly greater incidence of “ political” influence in the Western theatre ? I know it had its impact in the East, too : the factions in the AoP were pernicious ....but did they hold sway to a greater degree in the West ?

I hope this is pertinent to the original matter of the thread.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2811
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 9/2/2020 11:59:59 AM

Phil, thinking about all this.....the Army Of Northern Virginia fought, mostly in Virginia( excepting for it`s two invasions into Maryland and Pennsylvania. The Army of Tennessee fought in Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama......so "media" from all over these states in the West got a huge cut of the action...and probably contributed to the various factions and gossiping. The press in Virginia viewed Lee as a personal savior...and did not wish to engage in factions..... but to support Lee`s army. Some did occur in the East, Longstreet was not happy about headlines that tended to "play up Virginians" while slighting coverage of Generals and leadership from outside "ginia."

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 9/2/2020 1:46:05 PM

Thanks, Morris....that’s something that I hadn’t considered : the wide geographic remit of the AoT, compared with the relatively constrained arena that Lee’s men fought in. It had occurred to me regarding the Union armies in the Western Theatre, but not in so far as the AoT was concerned. There was, I suppose, the AoNV contingent that fought at Chickamauga and Knoxville....in itself, very much an aberration that only served to show how it was like seed cast on stony ground.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1015
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 9/2/2020 5:35:25 PM

Quote:
Greg and Morris, and , of course , Larry,

Do you think that the reporting of war news in the West was more susceptible to sensationalism than it was in the East ?

Regards, Phil



From the newspapers I scour to get material I have to say the papers in Virginia seem to win top prize for biased, slanted and false news. Probably done to keep home front morale up or maybe just really bad reporting.

Best regards, Larry.
----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4652
Death of General Pemberton
Posted on: 9/3/2020 6:04:21 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Greg and Morris, and , of course , Larry,

Do you think that the reporting of war news in the West was more susceptible to sensationalism than it was in the East ?

Regards, Phil



From the newspapers I scour to get material I have to say the papers in Virginia seem to win top prize for biased, slanted and false news. Probably done to keep home front morale up or maybe just really bad reporting.

Best regards, Larry.

Your expertise holds sway here, Larry.

I must be wrong in my impressions.

Perhaps journalists in the West were kept on a shorter leash : no doubt Sherman would see to that !

Two western battles intrigue me in this respect : Perryville and Stones River....strategic Union victories, but tactically the advantage went to the Confederates, certainly in the opening phases of the two battles.

Press reaction would be illuminating.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

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