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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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From the Richmond Whig. Richmond Virginia. May 11, 1863.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon
MI USA
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Posts: 8067
Joined: 2006
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May 11, 1863
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Hi Larry,
The death of Stonewall really hurt Lee, & the ANV, what if Lee had put an attack on Washington DC after Fredericksburg?. Would it have had a chance of succeeding??
What say ya'll??
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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Lightning
Glasgow
UK
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Posts: 1042
Joined: 2005
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May 11, 1863
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The fortifications of Washington D.C were impregnable to any force the Confederacy possessed. They knew this, which is why Lee repeatedly tried to get the AoP into a battle of annihilation.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Colin,
What an interesting comment you make.
In this sense, Chancellorsville left Lee profoundly cast down. He had attained a legendary victory, but its cost - obviously compounded by the death of Jackson - left him feeling frustrated by his failure to secure the decisive triumph.
He’d expressed the same feelings after Fredericksburg.
It’s the opinion of some historians that his personal health was deteriorating as a heart condition gripped him . We forget that the toll of appallingly severe stress and battlefield trauma afflicted men of his exalted status, and that PTSD is not a phenomenon confined to modern society.
As for the forts around Washington, I’d like to discuss what you’ve said with reference to Lee’s decision to dispatch Early on a raid to threaten Washington in July 1864, in circumstances very different from those that he faced after Chancellorsville.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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scoucer
Berlin
Germany
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Posts: 3219
Joined: 2010
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May 11, 1863
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Quote: It’s the opinion of some historians that his personal health was deteriorating as a heart condition gripped him . We forget that the toll of appallingly severe stress and battlefield trauma afflicted men of his exalted status, and that PTSD is not a phenomenon confined to modern society.
Regards, Phil
It wasn´t just the battlefield trauma. The responsibility and constant riding on campaign must have taken it´s toll.
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Quote:Quote: It’s the opinion of some historians that his personal health was deteriorating as a heart condition gripped him . We forget that the toll of appallingly severe stress and battlefield trauma afflicted men of his exalted status, and that PTSD is not a phenomenon confined to modern society.
Regards, Phil It wasn´t just the battlefield trauma. The responsibility and constant riding on campaign must have taken it´s toll. Trevor
Agreed. Especially trying to retain his legendary composure as he had to deal with the array of difficult personalities under his command.
It’s long been my opinion that high command in this war was uniquely stressful.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
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Posts: 908
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Phil,
Quote:As for the forts around Washington, I’d like to discuss what you’ve said with reference to Lee’s decision to dispatch Early on a raid to threaten Washington in July 1864, in circumstances very different from those that he faced after Chancellorsville.
Several issues come to mind.
1) By the time that Early approached the Washington forts, most of the "heavies" had been sent to fight with Grant's meat grinder. The forts were badly under manned.
2) Early's original mission was to free up the "valley"....when Hunter stupidly retreated into West Virginia, the path to Washington was open....hard not to at least 'take a look' at possibilities.
3) Approaching Washington could be justified on the basis that doing so might upend Grant's Virginia campaign....ie. he might be forced to relinquish his hold on Petersburg/the ANV etc. Which he sorta did....(but not really) by having to send the VI corps up to Washington.
As you noted "in circumstances very different form those that he faced after Chancellorsvile"...
s.c.
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Lest we’re tempted to dismiss this foray as ineffective and easily dealt with, it’s worth noting that the dollar collapsed to its all time low in the war as Early got close to Washington and panic gripped the stock exchange.
It’s been emphasised that Lincoln’s escape from defeat in the Presidential Election of November 1864 was more attributable to Sheridan’s victory at Cedar Creek than to Sherman’s success in taking Atlanta.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Lightning
Glasgow
UK
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Posts: 1042
Joined: 2005
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May 11, 1863
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Quote: Colin,
What an interesting comment you make.
In this sense, Chancellorsville left Lee profoundly cast down. He had attained a legendary victory, but its cost - obviously compounded by the death of Jackson - left him feeling frustrated by his failure to secure the decisive triumph.
He’d expressed the same feelings after Fredericksburg.
It’s the opinion of some historians that his personal health was deteriorating as a heart condition gripped him . We forget that the toll of appallingly severe stress and battlefield trauma afflicted men of his exalted status, and that PTSD is not a phenomenon confined to modern society.
As for the forts around Washington, I’d like to discuss what you’ve said with reference to Lee’s decision to dispatch Early on a raid to threaten Washington in July 1864, in circumstances very different from those that he faced after Chancellorsville.
Regards, Phil
Hi Phil,
Steve articulated it better than me, but the defences in 1863 (after Chancellorsville) were in better condition than when Early made his dash up the valley. I don't think it's wild to say that an assault by the ANV on the capitol defences in 1863 would have been anything other than a catastrophic slaughter of the attacking forces. If the cream of the ANV couldn't carry a position after crossing a mile of open ground under heavy fire at Gettysburg, what chance would it have had against proper fortifications and entrenchments?
Lee's goal, as ever, was to force a defeat upon the AoP so great that the public clamour for peace forced the Union political leadership to the table. I'm not really sure the Confederacy got close to that kind of victory. Even after Chancellorsville, the mood seems to have been in the north to fight on and get the job done.
Cheers,
Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
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Posts: 908
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Quote: Lest we’re tempted to dismiss this foray as ineffective and easily dealt with, it’s worth noting that the dollar collapsed to its all time low in the war as Early got close to Washington and panic gripped the stock exchange.
It’s been emphasised that Lincoln’s escape from defeat in the Presidential Election of November 1864 was more attributable to Sheridan’s victory at Cedar Creek than to Sherman’s success in taking Atlanta.
Regards, Phil
Yes....hardly ineffective, given that the South had merely to "not lose"...and hope that the North would eventually just get tired of fighting and sue for peace. Having Confederate infantry on the outskirts of Washington was a very strong argument for the war effort being a complete failure. And for not re-electing the President that had prosecuted such an ineffective military effort.
I am inclined to see Atlanta and Cedar Creek as the "one, two punch" that won the election for Lincoln. I have not personally read an argument that Cedar Creek was historically more important that the fall of Atlanta. My own bias is that the fall of Atlanta carried more weight with the voting public (it had appeared as if Sherman was hopelessly 'stuck' in front of Atlanta...). But I am open to a counter argument.
s.c.
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
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Posts: 908
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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Colin,
Quote:Lee's goal, as ever, was to force a defeat upon the AoP so great that the public clamour for peace forced the Union political leadership to the table. I'm not really sure the Confederacy got close to that kind of victory. Even after Chancellorsville, the mood seems to have been in the north to fight on and get the job done.
Agree that Lee was always looking for the knock out punch. Which I believe one could argue was a mistake.
I would argue that the South had merely (?) to not lose the war. Eventually, the North would grow tired, sue for peace, and the Confederacy would have 'won' its independence. A bit not unlike what happened with the American Revolution-:)
Lee obviously did not agree with this. I believe that his argument was that because the North had such superior resources, that time was on the side of the North (not sure I agree....), and that going for a knock out blow was the best option.
s.c.
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mikecmaps
CAMARILLO
CA USA
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Posts: 213
Joined: 2020
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May 11, 1863
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05112023
MD, Phil, Colin, Group,
Couple of interesting suggestions?
“what if Lee had put an attack on Washington DC after Fredericksburg?. Would it have had a chance of succeeding”
“appallingly severe stress and battlefield trauma afflicted men of his exalted status, and that PTSD is not a phenomenon confined to modern society”
As Lee didn’t like idea of being pinned to fortifications to defend Richmond IMO, he also not think highly of attacking same. Not his demonstrated style. And in fact, not really necessary Harrisonburg was not fortified and would have likely caused almost as much morale/political damage as DC. And his army not fitted out for that effort(attacking fortification). IIUC his idea to get AOP in open and cause major defeat. Came close but missed. Note after Fredericksburg winter campaign not likely. (in Mexican war Lee played important part in flanking Mexican positions and not direct attacking, mostly)
But yes after Jackson loss, didn’t have leadership to pull off major action. By June ’63 ANV starting to show effect of leader losses at regt and brigade level and also corps level. Lee probably missed his chance in ’62. Army of 2nd BR not that of Gettysburg in terms of leaders. Brigade & Divisions under new leaders.
At Gettysburg Lee 56 years old and had had a heart attack in April and return to duty in about 3 weeks when modern med would have been for 2-3 month down time. 1860 life expectancy was 40 years ( 1/3 infants died 2) so even allowing he had always had robust health before the war, 2 years in the field with stress of command took a big toll, it appears. And dealing with a recalcitrant Davis, clumsy government, and stubborn, balky, petty officers required supreme self control which tends to increase effects of stress. It has been remarked that pictures of Lincoln 1860-65 show marked aging, likely effects similar with lee? (Lincoln 2 years younger than Lee)
Thanks,
Mike_C
mikecmaps
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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May 11, 1863
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supreme self control which tends to increase effects of stress.
Yes ! I think you’ve nailed it there, Mike.
The success attained by Lee’s AoNV was, IMHO, largely attributable to his ability to hold a very difficult team together, which entailed sublime restraint which must have been almost intolerable at times, bearing in mind the nature of so many of his subordinates, not to mention his exasperating political bosses.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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