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HaraldBTooth
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Quote: What’s the verdict then ?
Was it a failure by McClellan to exploit his advantage and destroy Lee’s army, or a remarkable success by Lee’s army in standing its ground, surviving and then escaping ?
The way I’ve framed the question indicates my take on it !
Regards, Phil
Well my take on it if it had been someone else than Burnside on the left it could have gone the other way. Lee had some luck there with the arrival of A.P. Hill. Burnside seems to have been a halfway political general, somewhat by his own admission to Lincoln less than competent.
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Phil Andrade
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Thanks so much, mikemaps.
Rather like AP Hill at Antietam, you’ve intervened just as I was feeling that NYG’s remorseless insistence on a narrow tactical definition was going to crush my determination to seek more viewpoints.
Not that I refute the importance of the point he makes.
Right now I’m touring North Yorkshire enjoying delightful scenery and company to match.
Tomorrow we return to London and I intend to cite a passage from a book that makes my arguments in a far more effective way than I can.
I won’t disclose the name of the author, but I ask you to try and guess who it is. No cheating please : venture your answer without referring to books or Google !
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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scoucer
Berlin
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Quote:Quote: What’s the verdict then ?
Was it a failure by McClellan to exploit his advantage and destroy Lee’s army, or a remarkable success by Lee’s army in standing its ground, surviving and then escaping ?
The way I’ve framed the question indicates my take on it !
Regards, Phil Well my take on it if it had been someone else than Burnside on the left it could have gone the other way. Lee had some luck there with the arrival of A.P. Hill. Burnside seems to have been a halfway political general, somewhat by his own admission to Lincoln less than competent.
I think we should reconsider.
An excellent lecture revisiting Burnside´s role at Antietam.
[Read More]
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Phil, best we use the definitions at the time of the Civil War, and not apply any modern definitions.
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Steve Clements
Toronto
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Quote: When the issue ofEmancipation Proclamation was linked to the progress of the war, neither Great Britain nor France had the political will to oppose the United States, since it linked support of the Confederacy to support for slavery.
This is simply NOT TRUE!!!
You appear to be trying to grab some moral high ground for the Lincoln administration.
1) France and Britain regarded the EP with a GREAT deal of cynicism. Particularly given that the EP did NOTHING to free slaves in loyal slave states (Kentucky etc.) At best, the EP was regarded as a war measures act (which it really was), and arguably its purpose was a call for a servile insurrection. Which BG and France did NOT approve of.
2) The period of time where France and GB (and Russia was also involved) were closest to calling for mediation/an armistice was November '62. Well after the promulgation of the EP.
s.c.
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NYGiant
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Quote:Quote: When the issue ofEmancipation Proclamation was linked to the progress of the war, neither Great Britain nor France had the political will to oppose the United States, since it linked support of the Confederacy to support for slavery. This is simply NOT TRUE!!! You appear to be trying to grab some moral high ground for the Lincoln administration. 1) France and Britain regarded the EP with a GREAT deal of cynicism. Particularly given that the EP did NOTHING to free slaves in loyal slave states (Kentucky etc.) At best, the EP was regarded as a war measures act (which it really was), and arguably its purpose was a call for a servile insurrection. Which BG and France did NOT approve of. 2) The period of time where France and GB (and Russia was also involved) were closest to calling for mediation/an armistice was November '62. Well after the promulgation of the EP. s.c.
Absolutely NOT TRUE!!!!
1. The EP removed Great Britain and France from ever intervening to help the Confederacy, as it would be tantamount for fighting to preserve a nation based on slavery. Fact is, they never did intervene did they!
2. GB was more concerned with Imperial Russia. During the American Civil War, Russia supported the Union primarily because its main geopolitical enemy at that time was Great Britain, which was sympathetic to the Confederacy. From the start of the war Russia expressed total support for Abraham Lincoln’s government, claiming that it was the only legitimate authority on U.S. soil. Among other European countries, only Switzerland backed the Union so strongly. As for the two leading powers in Europe - Great Britain and France - their leaders were discussing the possibility of intervention on the side of the Confederacy; but they later abandoned this idea and remained neutral.
Inspired by Russia’s recent military defeat in the Crimean War, the Poles tried to regain their independence, Both Britain and France were considering possible intervention on the Polish side. Moving part of the Russian Navy to America would have helped in case of war with European powers. If based in neutral ports, Russian warships could more easily attack British and French ships in both the Atlantic and Pacific. But that proved not to be necessary because Britain and France did not support the Polish uprising, which was crushed by Russian troops.
3. GB needed the approval of the Queen before they tried any intervention...and she had already declared GB to be neutral.
respectfully submitted, NY Giant
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Phil Andrade
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Quote: Phil, best we use the definitions at the time of the Civil War, and not apply any modern definitions.
NYG,
Although you’ve constantly alluded to these mid nineteenth century definitions, I must confess that I don’t know much about them. What particular point of reference decreed that being the first to abandon the field necessarily entailed tactical defeat ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Phil Andrade
London
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Dp
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Steve Clements
Toronto
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Quote:Quote: Quote: What’s the verdict then ?
Was it a failure by McClellan to exploit his advantage and destroy Lee’s army, or a remarkable success by Lee’s army in standing its ground, surviving and then escaping ?
The way I’ve framed the question indicates my take on it !
Regards, Phil Well my take on it if it had been someone else than Burnside on the left it could have gone the other way. Lee had some luck there with the arrival of A.P. Hill. Burnside seems to have been a halfway political general, somewhat by his own admission to Lincoln less than competent. I think we should reconsider. An excellent lecture revisiting Burnside´s role at Antietam. [Read More]Trevor
Burnside was thrown under the bus by Mac ( IMO )
Lot of recent info on just when the orders to attack went to Burnside...and it was NOT early in the am.
s.c.
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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I learned it from Clausewitz, On War.
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morris crumley
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As I said before, Lee had 40,000 ( I think closer to 38,000) at Sharpsburg.....Little Mac, the "New Napoleon " had over 87,000 attacking. More than a two to one advantage, and while Lee personally checked his lines during the battle, Mac hardly moved from his HQ. With a two to one advantage, he attacked somewhat piecemeal, and was beaten back by a desperate foe. I just can`t say that Mac earned the term "tactical victory" in any sense.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Last I checked Lee and the ANV retreated across the Potomac River, and left the battlefield.
I can show you the ford they used to return to Virginia.
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Phil Andrade
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After the Battle of South Mountain, Lee said “ The day has gone against us. “
Did he make such a statement after Antietam ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Steve Clements
Toronto
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Hi Morris,
I think that the 87k figure is inflated, although I have certainly seen that high a figure bandied about....I am guessing that Mac had maybe 70k (75k at most) on hand. Including cavalry that he wouldn't use-;) But only about 54k were actually used. Of course, whose fault is that-:)
Certainly agree with your "piecemeal" comment. Which allowed Lee to move units to the area currently the most threatened. And you can argue that by moving Hooker across (and getting into a firefight with Hood) on the evening of the 16th, he kinda gave away where he wanted to land his first blow. But if he was gonna move Hooker across, he should have sent Mansfield across as well....he really fought the battle one corps at a time.
s.c.
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Well, the rank and file made this comment...
'You ought to have seen us Skeedadling across the Potomac River and the yankees close in our rear." Landscape Turned Red, p 312.
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Phil Andrade
London
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Quote: Hi Morris,
I think that the 87k figure is inflated, although I have certainly seen that high a figure bandied about....I am guessing that Mac had maybe 70k (75k at most) on hand. Including cavalry that he wouldn't use-;) But only about 54k were actually used. Of course, whose fault is that-:)
Certainly agree with your "piecemeal" comment. Which allowed Lee to move units to the area currently the most threatened. And you can argue that by moving Hooker across (and getting into a firefight with Hood) on the evening of the 16th, he kinda gave away where he wanted to land his first blow. But if he was gonna move Hooker across, he should have sent Mansfield across as well....he really fought the battle one corps at a time.
s.c.
Steve,
Reducing the thing to a simplistic formula, McClellan outnumbered Lee two to one, but allowed the odds to diminish to 3:2 by dint of actual battlefield deployment. In this sense, Lee’s tactical performance was the more effective.
I would emphasise that, after listening to Tom Clements, I am reluctant to follow the McClellan bashing school : Lee rated him as his most able opponent, and the casualties suffered by Lee in his battles against Little Mac lend some weight to this much derided statement.
That said, I’m still convinced that the tactical outcome at Antietam afforded a victory of sorts to Lee.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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NYGiant
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Antietam is considered a turning point of the war and a victory for the Union because it ended Lee's strategic campaign (his first invasion of Union territory).
On a significant note, Lee lost a greater % of his army, soldiers he could ill-afford to lose.
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NYGiant
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Lee withdrew from the battlefield first, the technical definition of the tactical loser in a Civil War battle.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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Steve, yeah you may be closer to right on the Union numbers.....I have seen them all over the place.....I just took the figure from I can`t recall where. I am certain that Lee had slightly fewer than 40,000. We, Georgia units) lost a lot to attrition at Crampton`s Gap, and as I said, so many fell by the wayside on that march into Maryland. I see Sharpsburg as a strategic victory for the North that Lincoln was able to make use of ...but to say that McClellan won a tactical victory with manner in which he chose to fight it....no.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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The criteria used to determine the winner or the loser was in the 19th Century...who left the battlefield first? That is how we must look at Antietam, and not though a 21st century lens.
Respectfully submitted, NY Giant
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mikecmaps
CAMARILLO
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09232022
Group,
NYGiant
“On a significant note, Lee lost a greater % of his army, soldiers he could ill-afford to lose.”
1st there is no correlation for % losses for win/loss. Example Chancellorsville, Union 13% overall Confed 22%, but 4 union corps at 22, 21, 19, 19.
Antietam 4 union corps doing fighting 21%, overall 15%, Confed 22%.
2nd While one may hold to the single “Rule”, it actually shows the weakness of the argument
by ignoring other factors, the “rule” is simple and straight forward but in most cases
effective analysis requires inclusion of fuller context for real understanding.
Of course it’s up to each reader to developed his own opinion so its arguable.
But temporarily setting aside the “rule” theres not much to hold up that side of the argument is there?
Lee tactical win yes.
thanks, Mike_C.
mikecmaps
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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We can't apply 21st Century rules to a 19th Century battle.
Fact is, Lee retreated and left the battlefield first. He was the loser.
Matter of fact, that ended his Maryland Campaign for all practical purposes.
And considering he lost a significant % of his army, and with the limited Human Resources available to the Confederacy, makes it a more devastating loss.
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Phil Andrade
London
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Here's the contribution I promised I'd make on my return to London.
This is a passage I've lifted from a book, and I ask that you try and identify the author. No doubt, some will guess straight away. More pertinently, please state whether you agree with the statements.
..... in the emergency of the day at Sharpsburg, when every general had been occupied on his own front, the larger tactical direction of the action had fallen to Lee and he had discharged it flawlessly. Walker had been moved from the right to the left at precisely the right moment : McLaws had been directed to that part of the line where he was most needed ; R.H. Anderson had been at hand to support D.H. Hill when that officer's own division had been shattered ; A.P. Hill had been sent to precisely the place where his timely arrival, and only his arrival, could save the day. In a word, Sharpsburg was the first major battle that Lee had completely directed, and if he had ever believed, deep in his own heart, that his ability as a tactician was less than his skill as a strategist, Sharpsburg must have given him new confidence. For that action remains a model in the full employment of a small force for a defensive battle on the inner line.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Let me guess.......mmmmm....has to be a historian based on the allusion to the literary and intellectual movement that sought to reconcile the traditional white society of the South to the defeat of the Confederate States of America....aka Lost Causer
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vpatrick
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Quote: Let me guess.......mmmmm....has to be a historian based on the allusion to the literary and intellectual movement that sought to reconcile the traditional white society of the South to the defeat of the Confederate States of America....aka Lost Causer
I dont understand Im not as smart as you these are your words two posts back.
"We can't apply 21st Century rules to a 19th Century battle."
which is it
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nuts
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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The Battle of Antietam has to be evaluated to the time and not the present day.
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vpatrick
MA
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[Read More]
[Read More]
[Read More]
vpatrick
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nuts
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Phil Andrade
London
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Quote: The Battle of Antietam has to be evaluated to the time and not the present day.
Let’s take a close look at the evaluations of nineteenth century warriors, then ; especially those who were actually present at the battle .
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Phil Andrade
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This is one I rather like, coming from E.P. Alexander :
In offering battle on the 18th Lee had everything to lose and nothing to gain ; McClellan, on the contrary, in accepting battle, would have had everything to gain both for himself and his cause, and nothing to lose ........ The battle-field is unique, among all the fields of the war, in offering all the prizes to the Federals and all the risks to the Confederates. To McClellan it was the opportunity of a lifetime.
So Lee " offers battle " : is this a deliberate attempt to avoid being stigmatized by the Clausewitzian definition of tactical defeat ?
Here's a succinct statement from another Southern participant :
....on the Confederate side, Sharpsburg was unquestionably the best fought battle of the war. ( Henry Kyd Douglas)
And look at this elaboration from the same man :
It was one of the bloodiest of the war, and a defeat for both armies. The prestige of the day was with Lee, but when on the night of the 18th he recrossed into Virginia, although, as the Comte de Paris says , he " left not a single trophy of his nocturnal retreat in the hands of the enemy," he left the prestige of the result with McClellan. ( B&L)
How about that, then : prestige of the day versus prestige of the result ?
I must seek some Northern counterparts to cite.
Here's one that also comes from B&L, from the pen of Jacob D.Cox, divisional commander under Burnside at Antietam:
The result was that Lee retreated unmolested on the night of the 18th , and that what might have been a real and decisive success was a drawn battle in which our chief claim to victory was the possession of the field .
The closing words of that statement will afford you some satisfaction, NYG, but it comes with the caveat of the phrase " a drawn battle".
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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Phil, so glad to see you make mention of E P Alexander. His "Fighting for the Confederacy" is a must read. Alexander was a Renaissance man in many ways. Military cryptologist, early to the use of observation balloons excellent artillery officer, and he was even convinced of Federal tunneling and dug a counter tunnel until wounded and taken off at Petersburg.
Even Steven Sears has written that Lee invited McClellan to attack him on the eighteenth. That he stayed until he was convinced that "little Mac" had enough..and then lee withdrew. He was hardly tactically defeated at Sharpsburg though it was a close thing. So close that Longstreet, wearing carpet slippers, held the reigns of the horses of several staff officers as they worked the guns supporting the area of the sunken road in Piper`s orchard.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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Phil Andrade
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Morris,
Your description of Alexander as a “ Renaissance “ man is spot on, I think !
I find it impossible to read his memoir without feeling a profound admiration for him.
Regarding the fighting at Antietam, I was impressed by the first link that our friend Vin sent us a few posts earlier.
I had always wondered why the Confederate casualties were so heavy as they faced the Yankee juggernaut in the morning struggle around the Dunker Church and the Hagerstown Pike. The vignette that Vin gave us explains how much southern blood was shed as the rebels mounted successive counter attacks against the bluecoats who had managed to gain a foothold on that vital high ground that constituted the centre of Lee’s line.
We read a lot about the slaughter of the yankees in Sedgwick’s division, but not so much about the ensuing loss suffered by the rebels who mounted these costly and abortive counter attacks.
As you say, a desperately close affair.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
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Yeah Phil, I sent a PM to Vince thanking him for the link. I watched the first last night while taking in the night air.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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NYGiant
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Sears can write anything he wants.
I'll deal with the facts.
Fact...Lee left the field first and left it to the victors....the Union.
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Phil Andrade
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Prestige of the day to Lee : prestige of the result to McClellan.
That’s the verdict of one who was there, and it works for me, and that’s a fact too …… but I haven’t read Clausewitz.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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NYGiant
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Since when does prestige determine the winner of a battle?
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Phil Andrade
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Posts: 5924
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Try reversing that : it might be a question of the outcome of the battle determining the prestige.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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NYGiant
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Posts: 842
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Why not try and evaluate a 19th Century battle according to the time period?
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Phil Andrade
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Posts: 5924
Joined: 2004
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Quote: Why not try and evaluate a 19th Century battle according to the time period?
Indeed : why not ?
That’s what I’ve been trying to do. The comments I cited from Cox, Alexander and Douglas in recent posts attest, and I hope to get more.
Please provide contemporary accounts to help us.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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NYGiant
home
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Posts: 842
Joined: 2021
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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And that's why the 1st to leave the battlefield , is the loser of the battle.
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Phil Andrade
London
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Posts: 5924
Joined: 2004
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Antietam : some reflections and comparisons
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Then why did so many of the participants on both sides refer to it as a draw ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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