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 (1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Eastern Theater)
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scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2875
Joined: 2010
News from Antietam.
10/18/2020 9:18:23 PM
This is something we touched on back in March but didn´t expand, as we discussed Rosecrans – Underrated generals.

Burnside did not want to accept command of the AOP but was informed by the courier that if he did not accept it, it would be offered to Hooker who Burnside despised.

An interesting lecture by John Hoptak taking a new look at Burnside at Antietam.
[Read More]

Another point for me is that up to this point in the war the Union cavalry was just not up to scratch. Particularly in the case of screening and reconnaissance which is why the Confederate cavalry rode rings around them and it played an important role in early confederate victories. Union cavalry should have previously scouted the terrain and reported the location of Snavely Ford.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/19/2020 5:07:06 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Using the animated map that Trevor pitched, and looking at the casualty figures for the battle, it comes as a surprise to see just how heavy Burnside's casualties actually were.....all the more so, since one of the commentators made much of the Federal IX Corps taking lower losses. Moreover, the rebel forces were very thin on this southern flank of the battle, with several hundred Georgia riflemen doing their best to replicate Sparta's Thermopylae down by that bridge.


The Georgian's rifle pits were in a good place. They were well elevated and well dug in. They had a great view of the bridge and both entrances to the bridge. Once again, there was a crossing some 1 mile down stream.




Thirty five years ago, I toured the battlefield, and I still remember the field of fire that was apparent from the positions occupied by Toombs’ command.

Can you imagine the ordeal of trying to cross that bridge ?

What brave and disciplined troops !

But these were not Rodman’s men, were they ? It was Sturgis’ division, which suffered fewer casualties than Rodman’s.....although the loss was bad enough, with , again, a high proportion of killed : 136 , compared with 532 wounded and 11 missing. The rebels were shooting to kill.

Editing : The units that actually carried the bridge obviously took a lot of punishment. The Second Brigade of Sturgis's division lost 95 killed and 368 wounded, these being suffered almost entirely in the assault on the bridge.

I'm still wondering why Rodman lost so many killed : even more so, since Rodman himself was mortally wounded.

It comes as a surprise to me to learn that Burnside reported more men killed in action than Hooker : I hadn't properly appreciated the intensity of the fighting that raged in the battle for the southern sector of the field....the stories of the Miller Cornfield, the West Woods and the Dunker Church overshadowed the final hours of the struggle in my imagination.

Imagination is required when one tries to empathise with the people of those times. Antietam shocked them : that's understandable in view of the statistics that I dwell on. In the midst of research, poignant anecdotes have moved me. A Connecticut yankee, Lt Colonel Kingsbury, was fatally wounded when he deployed his regiment in reconnoitring the line of advance to the deadly bridge. Opposing him was Confederate general DR Jones, who happened to be his brother in law.

Jones was heartbroken at the news of Kingsbury's death, requested sick-leave, and died shortly afterwards.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2939
Joined: 2007
News from Antietam.
10/19/2020 12:10:29 PM
I think this end of the field of battle shows how mismanaged Union cavalry was-not being utilized for proper surveillance of the topography and the obstacles to maneuver and deployments. Crook wastes time trying to find a place to ford...when they do, it`s in small clusters. Sturgis wastes an hour or more trying to cross at a cattle ford ...before realizing that there is a big difference between crossing cattle and crossing soldiers, ammunition, and artillery!

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/19/2020 1:41:37 PM
Morris,

There's not much excuse for failure to reconnoitre the field. This was no encounter battle, brought on beyond the design and desire of the commanders, but a set piece affair in which the foes had been aligned and waiting for more than a day. Cavalry could -and should - have been put to their best use in this respect.

Lee took an appalling risk fighting there and then, with his back to the river and his men outnumbered and outgunned.

No entrenchments....a wing and a prayer if ever there was one.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/20/2020 7:38:07 AM

From the Fayetteville Weekly Observer. Fayetteville NC. October 20, 1862




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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/20/2020 11:11:39 AM
Larry,

These wounds to the ankle and foot were obviously more lethal than one might suppose. In that light, Joe Hooker's wound was pretty serious : he was just luckier in terms of the medical care he received.

Apparently, Anderson's successor, Colonel Tew, was killed almost the moment he assumed command of the brigade.

And, to make the cup run over, the Divisional commander of the yankees who had fired those fatal shots, Israel Richardson, was himself mortally wounded and died at about the same time as George Anderson.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/21/2020 4:15:59 PM
From the Charlotte democrat, Charlotte NC. October 21, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/22/2020 7:37:08 AM
Thanks Larry...astonishing exaggeration : effectively trebling yankee losses in the Second Manassas Campaign, doubling their South Mountain losses, likewise their Sharpsburg casualties, and multiplying the Sheperdstown figure tenfold. Other than that, fine...even understating the captures at Harper's Ferry.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/22/2020 10:27:16 AM
It would seem the captures at Harpers Ferry is the only figure even close to correct.
Larry
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/22/2020 10:28:39 AM
From the Semi-Weekly State Journal. Raleigh N.C. October 22, 1862.


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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/22/2020 11:35:43 AM
Larry,
These newspaper articles are such first rate primary source material , I do hope you realise how much I appreciate your efforts.

With Brian Downey ‘s death list I could cross reference the names and see how many of the wounded died.

Georgia has been conspicuous for its loss of life in the campaign, but North Carolina got a nasty beating, too.


Editing : Every single company commander killed. What awful attrition, and how do you find replacements of the right calibre ? Did men from lower ranks step forward, or were they pushed ?

Regards,Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/23/2020 3:34:22 AM
Damn my eyes ! I’ve made a mortifying mistake....sorry !

I misread the remit of the casualty list. Each company commander was named, and then the word “ Killed” was printed followed by the names. In my haste, I assumed that the Captains themselves had been killed, and was shocked to countenance that every single one of them was dead.

It speaks volumes about the intensity of the fight that I was willing to believe that.

It would be instructive to review the casualties by rank, and see how Antietam rates compared with other battles, in terms of officer mortality.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2939
Joined: 2007
News from Antietam.
10/24/2020 1:18:53 PM
Quote:
This is something we touched on back in March but didn´t expand, as we discussed Rosecrans – Underrated generals.

Burnside did not want to accept command of the AOP but was informed by the courier that if he did not accept it, it would be offered to Hooker who Burnside despised.

An interesting lecture by John Hoptak taking a new look at Burnside at Antietam.
[Read More]

Another point for me is that up to this point in the war the Union cavalry was just not up to scratch. Particularly in the case of screening and reconnaissance which is why the Confederate cavalry rode rings around them and it played an important role in early confederate victories. Union cavalry should have previously scouted the terrain and reported the location of Snavely Ford.

Trevor

Good video presentation. Thanks Trevor!

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/25/2020 11:03:44 AM
From the Hartford Courant, Hartford Conn. October 25, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1257
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/25/2020 11:12:34 AM
From the New Bern weekly Progress, New Bern N.C. October 25, 18162.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5007
Joined: 2004
News from Antietam.
10/26/2020 5:58:14 AM
Larry,

You make a very timely and interesting contribution with this article from a New Bern newspaper.

Timely, because we’ve been discussing Burnside’s ascendant reputation, and nothing could have been more conducive to this than his stellar performance in this successful and inspirational operation on the North Carolina coast six months before he was commanding a corps at Antietam.

Anecdotal accounts are always interesting , and the stories cited above are indicative of how fragile support for the Confederacy might have been, especially in areas where Union incursions had made headway earlier in the war.

That being so, it’s all the more remarkable how furiously the soldiers of Lee’s army fought, and nowhere more so than at Sharpsburg.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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