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(1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Eastern Theater)
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 9:20:50 AM

From the Ohio Statesman. Columbus Ohio, September 21, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 9:47:02 AM

Intrepid reporting "from the Army Of The Potomac."

The confederates buried a couple of thousand of their own....alive!

The rebels lost a total that actually is closer to the total of the combined forces!

Intrepid reporting indeed!

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 9:59:16 AM

Quote:
Intrepid reporting "from the Army Of The Potomac."

The confederates buried a couple of thousand of their own....alive!

The rebels lost a total that actually is closer to the total of the combined forces!

Intrepid reporting indeed!

Respects, Morris


It would seem todays news media learned their trade reading these articles.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 11:40:12 AM

Quote:
Intrepid reporting "from the Army Of The Potomac."

The confederates buried a couple of thousand of their own....alive!

The rebels lost a total that actually is closer to the total of the combined forces!

Intrepid reporting indeed!

Respects, Morris


It gets me agitated, trying to reckon how many confederates were actually killed at Antietam.

McClellan stated that 2,700 of the enemy’s dead were buried on the field, after a portion had been buried by the rebels themselves .

Actually , compared with the usual hyperbole of such claims in that war, Little Mac was being quite sober here, bearing in mind that he admitted losing more than a couple of thousand killed himself.

The most authoritative investigation stated that Lee’s army lost 1,546 killed at Antietam, but there were an additional thousand or so posted as missing, of whom - surely - a significant number were also killed.

If I had to bet on it, I would reckon that about one fifth of Lee’s missing in action had been killed : allowing for these, perhaps a total of 1,750 KIA would be plausible ?

That, of course, does not take into account the additional thousand, approximately , who were to die from wounds.

Yep, I reckon that Lee lost, in killed in one day at Sharpsburg, about one half of the total he was to lose in three at Gettysburg. And that was from a force half the size. You might also see a very close affinity between the Confederate casualties reported for Shiloh and those for Antietam., and from similarly sized armies, too.

Hope you don’t find my musings tiresome.

Regards, Phil


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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 12:45:54 PM

Phil, there were a great many "missing" from lee`s army that had dropped out, straggled, and AWOL due to illness. That march to Maryland was a time of great sickness among Lee`s men. My own ....my grt grt grandfather and his brother were both among them. Inconsistent rations, and augmentation of what they got with green corn and green apples, was also a problem. The brothers were sent to Chimborazo with what would be termed "dabilitas"[sic] a general term meaning too ill to turn out for duty or the march. Both would miss Sharpsburg, and one, my grt grt grandfather, spent almost three months at Chimborazo, returning just after Fredericksburg.

Respects. Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 1:40:41 PM

One has to question if Lee knew how many he had ready for battle. I have read estimates that 1/3 of the men who started into Maryland straggled, went home or deserted. How an accurate casualty count could be made when the ANV was back in Virginia is next to impossible.

Best regards, Larry
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 2:40:12 PM

Larry, I actually don`t think Lee had a reliable tally of the men he had available at Sharpsburg.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 2:57:48 PM

Quote:
One has to question if Lee knew how many he had ready for battle. I have read estimates that 1/3 of the men who started into Maryland straggled, went home or deserted. How an accurate casualty count could be made when the ANV was back in Virginia is next to impossible.

Best regards, Larry


Larry and Morris,

Lee was adamant that he had fewer than forty thousand men at hand at the Battle of Sharpsburg.

Livermore tells us it was 55,000 .

Who would you believe ?

Incidentally, Livermore also cites McClellan’s claim of 2,700 confederate dead being buried by his men, and uses that figure as the benchmark for his assessment of Lee ‘s casualties.

There is, I think, an important point to make about the “missing “.

The AoNV gave a specific figure of missing in action for the campaign : 2,304.

These were compiled from post battle returns, and do not include the stragglers and deserters, or the sick.

They’re actual battle casualties : prisoners in the main, but there are undoubtedly killed and wounded contained therein.

Surely, Morris, your gt gt grandfather was not counted as missing in action ?

Those legions of newspaper articles that you give us, Larry, show how meticulously recorded were the fates of the soldiers in Lee’s army.

Lee himself was to complain that public information was divulging too much detail about the number of slight wounds suffered, and conveying an inflated impression of the damage.

The other side of the story, however, is that thousands of Lee’s men did go off the radar in his foray into Maryland .

These were different from the men posted as “missing in action “. They probably didn’t get into action in the first place.

Hark at me ! Here I am, pontificating about statistics, while you, Morris, have got skin in the game with your great grandfathers and their experience .

A lot more humility needed on my part.

Regards, Phil














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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5926
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 9:47:55 PM

Guys,

Incase you missed it the American Battlefield trust did a great live series of videos on all aspects of the Antietam on the 158th Anniversary of the Battle! Fairly well done and informative, plus on location!

[Read More]

Check them out, the list is on the right, just click the topic you want!?

Regards, & enjoy,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 301
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/21/2020 11:48:31 PM

Quote:
Larry, I actually don`t think Lee had a reliable tally of the men he had available at Sharpsburg.

Respects, Morris



Based on Pinkerton's lofty numbers, I don't think McClellan did either !

Considering the heavy casualties sustained by the ANV a couple weeks earlier
during the 2nd Manassas Campaign, I don't believe we'll ever really know
what Lee's approximate strength was @ Sharpsburg.

Best Regards,

Greg
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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 4:15:11 AM

Greg,

Surely the exhaustive research by Bvt. Brig. Gen. Ezra A Carman USV might be cited as the most reliable source available for the numbers at Antietam.

He himself had been a regimental commander in the battle, and worked with surviving unit commanders and adjutants from both sides in order to get to grips with this.

By his rendition, we see that McClellan had 87,164 men available on the Roster Strength, of whom 55,956 were engaged in the battle. Lee, with his force depleted by illness, hunger, hot weather , thirst and exhaustion, had his army so reduced by excessive straggling that he was reduced to an " engaged" strength of 37,351. It is, in essence, a battle fought with odds of three to two in favour of the Federals.

In respect of the casualties, I draw your attention to the uncanny similarity between Shiloh, Murfreesboro and Antietam from the Confederate perspective...

Shiloh : Engaged, 40,335. Killed and wounded, 9,740; Missing, 959. Total : 10,699 ( 26.52%)

Sharpsburg : Engaged, 37,351. Killed and wounded, 9,300 ; Missing, 1,018. Total : 10,318 ( 27.62%)

Murfreesboro : Engaged, 37,712. Killed and wounded, 9,239. Missing, 1,027. Total : 10,266 (27.22%)

In all three of those battles, significant proportions of the missing had been killed and wounded, but, as they stand, the confirmed killed and wounded represent 24.15%, 24.9% and 24.5% respectively of the number engaged. Has there ever been a more phenomenal degree of consistency in the record of bloodshed in battle ?

Editing : by the works of John Busey, I see that Gettysburg conforms to this ratio of bloodshed on the Confederate side.

I have avoided Livermore's study of Antietam, because he inflates Lee's numbers and casualties : to be fair to him, though, he reduces the rebel numbers engaged at Murfreesboro to 34,732, which would raise their confirmed killed and wounded ratio to an extremely high 26.6%. He then goes on to bloat the southern missing in that battle to 2,500, with the result that he attributes an appalling 33.8% casualty total to Bragg's command there.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 8:46:04 AM

From the New York Daily Herald, New York City, September 22, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 8:48:19 AM

From the New York herald, New York City. September 22, 1862.


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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 301
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 1:20:19 PM

Its been many years since I've looked @ John Michael Priest's "Antietam: The Soldier's Battle".
For some reason 35,000-40,000 sticks out in my mind as his estimate.

Didn't Longstreet say 35,000 or less?

Ezra Carman was good at gathering veteran accounts many years after the war , but I'm not sure if I've seen his
estimated strength of the ANV.

Looking forward to Scott Hartwig's upcoming work on the Sharpsburg battle. He's been working on it
since the 90s.

Best Regards,

Greg

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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 2:58:09 PM

Greg,

In my earlier post I cited Carman’s estimate of Lee’s strength at Antietam : 37,351.

Very much par for the course, so to speak.

How odd of Livermore to have pitched his estimate at fifty per cent higher !

What was he playing at ?

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 719
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/22/2020 4:03:09 PM

Phil,

Couple years ago, I went on an "Antietam" kick, and read everything on my book shelves (including Carman) that dealt with the battle.

What I carried out from the exercise was that Lee almost certainly had less than 40k, of all arms, on the 17th.

And if one can accepts Carman's numbers, which I gather most historians do... they included 4500 cavalry and over 3600 artillery...i.e. Lee had fewer than 30k infantrymen on the 17th, including around 2200 that belonged to A.P. Hill's command, that were not available until late in the day.

Which meant that, on the morning of 18th, Lee had well under 30k in his lines, almost all of which had been heavily;y engaged on the 17th.....which is {arguably) fewer men than the number of men Mac had that had not even been engaged at all i.e. were fresh and ready to go on the morning of the 18th.

s.c.
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Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 1:55:26 AM

Thanks Steve.

When I study the casualty figures for the war, I find intriguing consistencies emerging.

The thing that seems to come over is that, in the currency of “ bloody losses” - by which I mean killed and wounded, without the prisoners - some battles reveal that roughly one fourth of the confederate armies engaged were hit : in terms of the infantry contingent alone, this equates to one third.

Certainly Antietam demonstrates this with clarity. Shiloh and Murfreesboro likewise, similar in absolute as well as relative terms. Gettysburg is also up there, with the same casualty rate applied to a force twice the size as those other three battles that I’ve cited. Chickamauga might even transcend, the only mitigating feature there being that the wooded battlefield reduced the proportion of killed amongst the men who were hit. That, and the significant fact that the Confederates won the battle....although failure to exploit rendered the bloodshed something of a waste.

The Federals, with their larger numbers, did not tend to sustain quite the same percentage loss of bloodshed overall....although it’s all too apparent that, amongst their worst hit contingents, the casualty rates rivalled or even exceeded those of the confederates. The ability of the southerners to engage their outnumbered forces more thoroughly came to the fore at Antietam and Gettysburg .

Edit : A rather shocking feature of the record persuades me to reconsider my statement that the Federals did not tend to suffer the same percentage rate of killed and wounded as the Confederates : if we consider the fighting from 5 May to 12 May 1864 in the Wilderness and Spotsylvania as one battle - and why wouldn’t we ? - it’s quite plausible to reckon that the percentage of Union infantry killed and wounded in that fighting exceeded that of their Confederate counterparts at Gettysburg .

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 8:03:39 AM

There is no question that Lee had fewer than 40,000 aggregate at Sharpsburg. They were strung out along a long line, desperate to hold with a raging river to their backs.

There is also no question that if McClellan had thrown his entire army in a co-ordinated attack on Lee`s lines, he would have broken them and destroyed Lee`s army. While every general planned upon a course designed to "destroy" the other army...no event in the war gave better, or more clear opportunity, for the destruction of an army than Sharpsburg.

The fact that McClellan failed to pursue Lee`s army and was fired for it is incidental, there should have been no army to pursue.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 9:25:52 AM

Morris,

All that might be said in mitigation, I suppose, is that throwing an “entire army in a co-ordinated attack” was to prove very difficult and eluded quite a few commanders.

It was achieved at Corps level....am I right ? Longstreet at Second Mannassas being conspicuously successful.

Grant got something pretty big going in the Wilderness on 6 May 1864.

How about Thomas at Nashville ?

You do convince me, though : I like your summary about no other battle offering a better chance for destroying an army than Sharpsburg.

Maybe that’s why Livermore adopts this peculiar statistical analysis of that battle : for some reason he wants to make the odds against Lee look smaller.

I know that his avowed aim was to make the North’s numerical superiority susceptible to reconsideration, and that was for the war as a whole. Perhaps he chose Antietam as a microcosm of that.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 719
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 10:07:37 AM

Phil,

Quote:
All that might be said in mitigation, I suppose, is that throwing an “entire army in a co-ordinated attack” was to prove very difficult and eluded quite a few commanders


Mac didn't even have to throw his entire army at Lee i.e. not the entire 80k plus (my bias is that Mac had maybe 75k on the morning of the 17th....Couch etc., was not available to him until later).....although using a portion of his "reserves" i.e. Porter, after the Sunken Road (and hence the centre) had been broken, might have been sufficient.

But the word "coordinated" is key here....Mac attacked Lee's left, then after a pause, his centre, and then after a pause, his right. As a result, Lee was able to beat back the various attacks, by scrambling around and moving units from place to place... Mac ended up fighting three separate battles that day. And I would argue that moving Hooker across the stream the night before, essentially telegraphed his opening move...i.e. Mac was going to hit Lee's left...which allowed Lee to move troops in that direction.

A word on Burnside if I may....there is a lot to criticize about how Burnside handled the IXth corps that morning/that day....but from what I have read, altho Burnside was slow, so was Mac, in terms of "when" he actually ordered Burnside to attack. Again, been a while since I have done any Antietam reading, but Mac essentially ended up lying about when he ordered Burnside to attack etc. And a check of the message flow shows that he was quite slow in terms of 'when' he ordered Burnside in.

And a word on Mac's cavalry...why were they not scouting the flanks? Why was A.P. Hill's arrival allowed to be a surprise??? You have cavalry, for God's sake, use them!!!

s.c.
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Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 11:51:22 AM

Steve,

Tom Clemens, so nearly your namesake, made a convincing case for McClellan in this campaign....he moved pretty damned quickly getting things together in the marching and fighting prior to the big battle of the 17th.

I’ve often wondered if Little Mac preferred foreplay to insertion !

How close did he get to the action on the big day ?

Do I remember correctly that he was present on or near the firing line in that sharp little fight on the evening of the 16th ?

Philip Pry Farmhouse....was that where he pitched his HQ for the big event ?

He alluded to his battle as a “ Masterpiece of art “.....yet he also described it as ‘...one of the most terrible battles in history, perhaps in the World....”this comes from memory, so forgive misquotes.

Regards,Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/23/2020 12:14:29 PM

From the Southern Confederacy. Atlanta Georgia. September 23, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 12:51:44 AM

Steve, a common error early in that war was the way Federal commanders failed to properly utilize cavalry. Mac did so, so did Hooker when he sent it off on railroad raids while Jackson was finding his right flank in the wilderness.

Respects, Morris


----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 719
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 9:57:19 AM

Phil,

Quote:
Tom Clemens, so nearly your namesake, made a convincing case for McClellan in this campaign....he moved pretty damned quickly getting things together in the marching and fighting prior to the big battle of the 17th.


1) I know that Mr. Clemens edited Carman's books....but I am not aware of anything that he specifically wrote on the battle that argues that Mac moved "pretty damned quickly"...can you tell me what you are referring to?

2) I don't agree. Well, not completely... I do agree that Mac moved at a reasonable pace up to the point where the lost order was "found". Of course, this was set against a rather low bar-:) I think that Lee's apparent belief that the AoP was completely disorganized and incapable of responding to his invasion was "wishful thinking". As was Lee's expectation that the AoP would remain huddled back in Washington, while Lee and company pranced around Maryland and Pennsylvania-:)

But once Mac was presented with the "lost order", he actually slowed right down. It would appear that he was intimidated by Lee's willingness to break his army into multiple pieces....believing that the Confederates must have overwhelming numbers if they were willing to do that.

Sears notes that the troop movements that did occur on the day that Mac was given the 'lost order" were ordered BEFORE Mac had Lee's plans in his hands. And that it was effectively 24 hours before Mac did much of anything about taking advantage of the new found information.

I would be particularly critical of Mac's efforts (?) to send aid to Harper's Ferry....

Quote:
Do I remember correctly that he was present on or near the firing line in that sharp little fight on the evening of the 16th ?


Hmmm....that would surprise me....Mac never allowed himself to get too close to the firing line-:).....but as I wrote previously, it has been a couple of years since I did any Antietam reading, so I would not dispute your assertion. But he was well away from the fighting on the 17th....although arguably not critically so.

s.c.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 10:19:08 AM

I believe that McClellan spent the entire battle mostly at the home he used as his HQ. He would climb to the attic, stand on a barrel and peek out the trap door to the roof, for a view of the field. He also would venture out into the yard where his staff had set up a telescope to survey the battle. If I remember correctly, he rode to see Franklin one time...Franklin, also a cautious man, wanted little Mac to utilize his reserves. Sumner, fearful of the heavy casualties already apparent, put a damper on that idea...and McClellan listened to Sumner.

Respects, Morris
----------------------------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 11:13:37 AM

Steve,

It’s not what Tom Clemens wrote, but what I remember him saying, that I cited.

He was a guest speaker over here several years ago, and I was delighted to be present when he spoke about McClellan’s performance in the Maryland Campaign.

He was out to demolish the Sears view of Little Mac , and he was eminently persuasive.

Being the scholar and authority that he is, he managed to press home the point that, once he assumed command, he moved with alacrity.

He made much of the timing of the receipt of Lee’s Lost Order, and emphasised that there have been distorted accounts about this.

What I’m sure about is the story Clemens related regarding McClellan’s involvement in the sharp skirmishing late on the 16th September.

It was a revelation to me, and I did come away feeling very differently about things .

Perhaps he was just out to sell a rather contrarian viewpoint.

Regards, Phil


----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
GregT
Three Rivers
MA USA
Posts: 123
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 1:32:59 PM

To all interested checkout American Battlefield Trust Antietam on YouTube.

They posted quite a few on-sight videos just last week.

They cover the leadup to the conclusion of the battle

GregT
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 719
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 2:07:40 PM

Hey Phil,

Quote:
He was out to demolish the Sears view of Little Mac , and he was eminently persuasive.


I agree that Sears is tough on little Mac but, IMO, justifiably so. Personally, for what he didn't do at both Frasier's Farm and at Second Bull Run, I think that Mac should have been put up in front of a wall and shot-:) So perhaps I do lean towards anyone that can find fault in Mac's "performance"-:)

From memory, I gather that there is a dispute about the time of day that Mac was given the lost order (midnight, vs. noon, with the noon timeframe being twelve hours before the midnight time frame). If Mac was given Lee's plans at noon, then he really did do nothing until the next day. And Sears makes a pretty persuasive case that Mac did, in fact, receive the found intelligence at noon, and not twelve hours later that night. I am guessing the Clemens accepts the midnight version of the story.

s.c.
----------------------------------
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 719
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/24/2020 2:16:21 PM

Hi Morris,

Quote:
Sumner, fearful of the heavy casualties already apparent, put a damper on that idea...and McClellan listened to Sumner.


Sedgwick's division of Sumner's corps, which I believe that Sumner was with, got ambushed in the West Woods...took a ton of casualties, without inflicting much damage on the Confederates. And at least one of Sumner's other divisions got cut up pretty bad attacking the Sunken Road .... apparently, that division just sort of wandered off, instead of following Sedgwick-:) Which might have been a good thing.... So Sumner would have been (perhaps understandably) pretty spooked by what had happened to his Corps...and had a distorted view of what Union successes there had been during the first half of the day's fighting.

But at some point I seem to remember Mac asking his trusted # two, Porter, whether or not he should send in Porter's V Corps....and Porter answered something along the lines of "I am the last reserve ... don't do it"

(I am badly paraphrasing here....too lazy to go look at my books....it's 25C outside, and this might be one of the last afternoons I can sit in the back yard without digging into my collection of L.L. Bean warmables...-:)

s.c.
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/25/2020 8:16:51 AM

I see a trend in the news of Antietam that was in use during the Gettysburg campaign. Early reports are full of glowing reports of a smashing victory. Then story's start to contain rumor, hopes and plain falsehoods. Finally the truth begins to appear along with the massive casualty lists.

From the Natchez Daily Courier. Natchez Mississippi. September 25. 1862


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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2837
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/25/2020 11:31:02 AM

Lee had spoken with Longstreet about capturing that Harper`s Ferry garrison and Longstreet was opposed to it. He argued that the men were too worn with hard marching and scant rations....Jackson had already arrested some of his senior commanders for allowing too much straggling. It seems that Jackson got lemons from his admirers, along with other perks ...but the common soldiers were to march without shoes, or even consistent and needed nutrition...and if they straggled, some one was going to pay!

EP Alexander takes note that he came across "my brother-in-law, General Lawton. He was now in command of Ewell`s division in Jackson`s Corps," replacing the wounded Ewell. "And he told me that he was the only division commander in Jackson`s Corps that was not at that moment under arrest.....And our army was indeed straggling badly. Provisions were scarce, but green corn and apples were abundant. That diet, however, weakened the men, caused sickness and had much to do with the straggling.

In a humorous-sarcastic response to a note from Jackson to Early, in which Jackson inquired as to "why he had seen so many stragglers when in the rear of Early`s division....Early answered with his own compliments that it was probably because Gen. Jackson rode in rear of the division!"

While Alexander does say that in his opinion the plans for Harper`s Ferry were, as planned, an excellent one....." But two things happened which rather made a mess of it." One being the "lost orders" the other being what Alexander writes, " in execution, one feature of the programme was changed and in quite an important particular. Longstreet`s division, instead of being halted at Boonesboro along with DH hill`s, was ordered on to Hagerstown. Here it was too far away when wanted, and could not be gotten back in time, as will appear later."

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Gregory C. White
Canton
GA USA
Posts: 301
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/25/2020 5:10:50 PM

Quote:
Provisions were scarce, but green corn and apples were abundant. That diet, however, weakened the men, caused sickness and had much to do with the straggling.



Respects, Morris


Morris,

I recall watching on TV a Sharpsburg/Antietam tour given by Gary Gallagher. He emphasized how many
Confederates had to excuse themselves from the battlefield to relieve themselves because of the pitifully
poor diet they had on that march.

Greg
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"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/26/2020 9:02:49 AM

From the Detroit Free Press. Detroit Michigan. September 26, 1862.

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/28/2020 8:34:27 AM

From the New York Herald. New York N.Y. September 28, 1862.


----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/28/2020 11:10:28 AM

Larry,

Both those articles you’ve just posted grab my attention and interest.

There is no attempt to conceal the heavy casualties suffered by the beloved home regiments. In this way, war reporting differs from that of the two world wars, when censorship endeavoured to conceal the price of battle.

Here we have two interesting variants on the theme : the first speaks of the “ fatality “ among the Western Regiments ; the second leads with“ Mortality Among The Wounded “. In the first case we learn of those posted as killed outright on the field. The second suggests that the post battle toll of wound mortality was “ very great” .

The second, however, admits of two thousand Union soldiers buried who had been “ killed” in the battle...... a candid and shocking indication of how dreadful the affair had been. It’s claimed that three thousand of the rebels had been killed and buried by the Union troops, and that the total loss is estimated at not less than twenty thousand, including four thousand killed. The actual Confederate loss is pretty well doubled, it seems : but that is quite a sober estimate considering the hyperbole that sometimes made far more extravagant claims in this and other conflicts.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/29/2020 10:25:41 AM

From the Fayetteville Observer. Fayetteville N.C. September 29, 1862.

----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4689
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/29/2020 1:45:53 PM

Larry,

Fantastic stuff, as always !

What do you reckon, as to Private Thornton bruised by a bomb ?

A bomb ?

Mortar shell, general artillery projectile ?

“ Bomb” has a special resonance, very much redolent of later wars.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/29/2020 1:59:41 PM

Quote:
Larry,

Fantastic stuff, as always !

What do you reckon, as to Private Thornton bruised by a bomb ?

A bomb ?

Mortar shell, general artillery projectile ?

“ Bomb” has a special resonance, very much redolent of later wars.

Regards, Phil


Most likely "bomb" means an artillery round. No mortars at Antietam.
----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/30/2020 7:35:55 AM


----------------------------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
Posts: 1054
News from Antietam.
Posted on: 9/30/2020 7:41:00 AM


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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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