|
Page 2 of 2
(Page:
1
2
)
|
|
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
|
Posts: 1702
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
I have this one:
The Forgotten Fleet: The British Navy in the Pacific, 1944-1945 by John Winton
Haven't read it yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
|
As to: Quote: 1945: Seventy US B-29 bombers fire bombed Kobe, Japan.
This is meaningless without some context.This was a “test” ordered by Curtis LeMay to confirm the expected impact of carpet incendiary bombing in Japan. Within 5 weeks, Kobe would be visited again – on 16/17 March 1945 – by 331 B-29’s – a force almost 5 times larger. The results were devastating, though not perhaps as costly in lives as LeMay might have liked. 21% of Kobe was destroyed, and some 8800+ died in the firestorm. This would become a norm in the last months of the war. The USAAF determined that this was the road to victory.
I have a bias here. I don’t like Curtis LeMay. But at least some of his training was by RAF Bomber Command. Maybe it’s not a question of culpability at the end of the discussion. Maybe its just the language by which you lie about what you’ve done.
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
GaryNJ
Cumberland
NJ USA
|
Posts: 232
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
Quote:As to: Quote: 1945: Seventy US B-29 bombers fire bombed Kobe, Japan. This is meaningless without some context.This was a “test” ordered by Curtis LeMay to confirm the expected impact of carpet incendiary bombing in Japan. Within 5 weeks, Kobe would be visited again – on 16/17 March 1945 – by 331 B-29’s – a force almost 5 times larger. The results were devastating, though not perhaps as costly in lives as LeMay might have liked. 21% of Kobe was destroyed, and some 8800+ died in the firestorm. This would become a norm in the last months of the war. The USAAF determined that this was the road to victory. I have a bias here. I don’t like Curtis LeMay. But at least some of his training was by RAF Bomber Command. Maybe it’s not a question of culpability at the end of the discussion. Maybe its just the language by which you lie about what you’ve done. Cheers Brian G
It's not meaningless but I understand where you're coming from as I agree the fire bombing was horrible.
Gary
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
|
5 Feb 1940.Quote: Finlnd The Allied Supreme War Council approves a plan for intervention in Finland; meanwhile they send substantial hel in airreaft, and tank and anti-airccraft guns. The epeditionary force is to comprise at least three divisions. (2194 Days of War, p. 43)
IIRC, the Allied Supreme War Council comprised officials from only Great Britain and France. Some sources say the 6 Feb meeting was its first; other sources talk of meetings as early as 12 Sept 1939. The Council would cease to function with the fall of France.
Maybe none of this is important at any rate. It caught my eye because of the reference to an expeditionary force. Given that WSC was one of the British representatives, the mention of an expeditionary force does not surprise me. Given that Chamberlain and Halifax were also British reps, I am not surprised that Sweden – and perhaps Germany – probably knew of the Council’s decisions.This may explain why Germany too was ready to send an “expeditionary” force into Denmark and Norway, leading to the opening of the war in the west.
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
|
Posts: 12982
Joined: 2009
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
Quote:Quote: Quote: 1945: British Pacific Fleet arrives in Australia. It consisted of four aircraft carriers, two battleships, four cruisers, eleven destroyers, and many supply ships.
Just for the record, this fleet consisted mostly of RN vessels but also warships from the RCN, RAN and the RNZN. It should be noted that many RN vessels contained crew members who were from Commonwealth countries. There were also many Canadians and New Zealanders flying as members of the British Fleet Air Arm. Prior to the war Britain would permit Commonwealth sailors and aviators to join British services and many remained in those services once the war began. As well, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme produced a lot of Commonwealth fliers and ground crew. Many Canadians would fly with the RCAF squadrons but many were also assigned to RAF and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. So with Britain taking the lead of course, the fleet that fought in the Pacific was a Commonwealth fleet. Cheers, George George, I got this off of the World War II Data Base. I'm interested in reading more about it. What is your source for this? Gary
Hi Gary, there are a number of sources.
[Read More]
p.495 in this document has a good, though rather detailed accounting of the RCN in the Pacific. Some good material about the relationship between the RCN and US Admiral King.
Marc Milner is a Canadian author who has written extensively about the RCN. There are essays on the web by this author.
The Sea is At Our Gates by Tony German is a good single volume history of the RCN and it has a section on the Canadian contribution to the British Pacific Fleet.
Cheers,
George
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
|
Posts: 12982
Joined: 2009
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
double
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
GaryNJ
Cumberland
NJ USA
|
Posts: 232
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
Quote:Quote: Quote: Quote: 1945: British Pacific Fleet arrives in Australia. It consisted of four aircraft carriers, two battleships, four cruisers, eleven destroyers, and many supply ships.
Just for the record, this fleet consisted mostly of RN vessels but also warships from the RCN, RAN and the RNZN. It should be noted that many RN vessels contained crew members who were from Commonwealth countries. There were also many Canadians and New Zealanders flying as members of the British Fleet Air Arm. Prior to the war Britain would permit Commonwealth sailors and aviators to join British services and many remained in those services once the war began. As well, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme produced a lot of Commonwealth fliers and ground crew. Many Canadians would fly with the RCAF squadrons but many were also assigned to RAF and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. So with Britain taking the lead of course, the fleet that fought in the Pacific was a Commonwealth fleet. Cheers, George George, I got this off of the World War II Data Base. I'm interested in reading more about it. What is your source for this? Gary Hi Gary, there are a number of sources. [Read More]p.495 in this document has a good, though rather detailed accounting of the RCN in the Pacific. Some good material about the relationship between the RCN and US Admiral King. Marc Milner is a Canadian author who has written extensively about the RCN. There are essays on the web by this author. The Sea is At Our Gates by Tony German is a good single volume history of the RCN and it has a section on the Canadian contribution to the British Pacific Fleet. Cheers, George
George,
Thanks for this. Looks good.
Gary
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
I think this thread is a great idea, and I hope it gains some momentum. I tried to create a forum offering daily events of WW2 – a very different thing – and found there were some days with nothing apparently worth reporting. Nevertheless, in a war as broad and complex as WW2 it needs only a relatively easy effort to capture critical events. I hope folks try to support the continuation of this thread.
9 Feb 1944
Given current concerns about Ukraine, the following drawn from 2194 Days of War offers room for thought:
“Eastern Front Bloody battles in the Kirovograd region, west of the Dniepr, are bringing about the annihilation of the German 8th Army, The Russian forces involved are the 3rd Ukrainian Front (Malinovsky)
and 2nd Ukrainian Front (Konev). (page 485)”
Just to provide a timeline for this reference, it was first published in Italian in 1977. The English translation I’m citing was published in 1979.
9 Feb 1943
The defeat of the Japanese on Guadalcanal, of major significance as a major containment of Japanese expansion. Also a huge propaganda victory for the US, when the USA needs to hear its troops are no longer being pushed back. Major turn in PTO, IMHO.
9 Feb 1941
British RN forces (naval air arm and big guns) attack Pisa, Leghorn and Genoa, causing substantial damage. IMHO, largely a propaganda exercise to further weaken Italian war morale. The attack signifies Italian defensive weakness more than British offensive capabilities. I assume the attacks are meant to demonstrate the breadth and capabilities of British arms, as on this same day WSC warned Bulgaria against joining the Axis and delivered his statement to the US: “Give us the tools and we’ll finish the job!”
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
10 Feb 1941.
“The German and Spanish governments sign a secret agreement by which Spin undertakes to resist any attack by the forces of the Western Allies.”
Hitler had only limited luck in his dealings with Spain. He had hoped to see Franco’s Spain join the Axis nations as full combatants. He wanted Franco to boot the British out of Gibraltar, e.g., which would have been potentially catastrophic to GB.
Franco’s Falangist movement shared many values with both Germany and Italy, but not enough for Franco to make a full commitment. That they were supportive of much of the Axis menu is beyond doubt – they were harsh on military escapees trying to return to duty through Portugal, e.g., and sent troops to fight ‘the bolshies”, largely in the south of Russia. Given the state of the world on this date, I sense Franco showed some kind of backbone in not meeting Hitler’s requests.
No chance to check the bomber war for this date. Will try later if I can.
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
On 9/10 March 1945 – six months before the surrender of Japan – the first deliberate fire-bombing of a major Japanese city (Tokyo) took place. Some 325 B-29s of USAAF XXI Bomber Command were despatched, with 279 reaching their objective. Fourteen B-29s were lost, and 42 damaged, with the loss of 96 aircrew killed or missing. Japanese losses included estimated deaths ranging from 90,000 to 100,000; over 1,000,000 were de-housed, with over 265,000 buildings destroyed. It was the most devastating (and perhaps most lop-sided) major air raid of WWII. Worse than Hamburg. Worse than Dresden. Worse than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Wiki offers a concise summary which IMHO is not bad at all, though I can’t verify all claims.
[Read More]
IIUC, the raid fell under the aegis of Curtis LeMay. A committed believer in strategic bombing, he cut his operational teeth in the ETO before being transferred to the PTO. “Hap” Arnold was unhappy with the effectiveness of the US bombing campaign of Japan to date, and LeMay argued both for a reconstitution of bomb loads (including a napalm-accelerated type of incendiary named (I believe) M69 and for the new techniques introduced with this Tokyo raid. These techniques included a night raid, reduced defensive capability, relatively low-level assault patterns, adaptation for “streaming” and other detailed deviations from standard USAAF methodology. They worked.
The XXth USAAF a/c of choice – and also of necessity – was the B-29. It was a magnificent a/c in many ways, and far ahead of any other bomber engaged in the war. But it was not yet fine-tuned, and had some issues which weakened and/or limited its use. Engines problems, automated system failures and fuel consumption were, I believe, some of the concerns.
Like nearly all major US bombers, it was designed to be self-protecting. This is IMHO an inaccurate description; the experience of the VIIIth in ETO demonstrated as early as 1942 that self-protection would work at best only with fighter escort and within the “boxes” in which they attacked. The “defensive package” of the typical B-29 added both crew (total: 11-13) and weight of defensive weapons and ammunition, which affected the bombloads at any distance.
For Tokyo, LeMay chose a night raid. This put most pilots out of their comfort zone (and out of their “boxes”), which led to variations on RAF night area bombing raids. At any rate, I feel too much has been made about the switch from “precision” to “area” bombing. From some time in 1943, The VIIIth and XVth, while still talking precision bombing, were not practicing it in many ways. At the heart of precision bombing was the need for 3 things: accurate navigation; an accurate bombsight; a skilled operator.To those you could add an undisturbed run to the target and calm, clear weather conditions. Bombing from great height diminished accuracy in any but perfect conditions. To achieve the accuracy the Norden bombsight was capable of required equally perfect conditions, which could be diminished by weather, previous bombing damage, or artificial smoke. Master bombers and toggliers replaced individual bomb-aiming, and a typical “precision” USAAF raid became a de facto carpet bomb, covering the length and breadth of the size of a bomber wing. Add the area covered by the number of Wings constituting a raid, and the concept of precision went out the window.
For this strike against Tokyo, I believe LORAN was the navigation tool. However accurate it may have been on paper (and I know little about early LORAN, except it was similar to RAF “Gee”, which I never saw as a precise navigation system, though helpful), there was no real need for accuracy, since the objective was to dehouse and destroy by fire.
The area of Tokyo chosen for assault shared many qualities with cities like Coventry, Plymouth New Town, Lübeck, Rostock, NE Hamburg and a host of other targets. All were old and densely packed, with relatively narrow streets and arteries. Many had a preponderance of wooden or vulnerable buildings; many target areas did not contain major factories, though there were still some factories whose labourers lived near enough to walk to work.
It appears “Hap” Arnold was pleased with the results of 9/10 March 1945: they furthered his unflagging belief in the capabilities of strategic bombing. It’s rather clear Curtis LeMay was pleased: he was the architect of the ride, and its success would keep him in his current command. It also seems, at least, that significant figures (FDR, WSC, and other leaders of Allied Command) were not unhappy with the results: if they felt the air assault outrageous, I’ve not seen any public comments. I admit this is not my area of interest as such, so can anybody enlighten me on that if I’ve got it wrong?
Think of the destructive power unleashed in that single raid on the night of 9/10 March. One city. One assault. 90,000-100,000 dead. 265,000 buildings destroyed. Over 1,000,000 human beings “dehoused”. Carefully planned, precisely directed and well-executed. This raid yielded a level of destruction that matched expectations; it was a “success”. In the “Introduction” to his Battle of Hamburg: The Firestorm Raid, Martin Middlebrook writes: “What happened to Hamburg may have been an extreme example of Allied success but the results obtained were the results that were hoped for every time the Allied heavy-bomber forces set out for Germany.” He could have easily written that about Tokyo.
There would be 23 major raids against Japanese cities between this attack on Tokyo and the end of the war, including the atomic attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. None would bring the levels of death seen in the Tokyo raid, though some cities – including both atomic cities – would suffer higher percentages of destruction than seen on 9/10 March.
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Michigan Dave
Muskegon
MI USA
|
Posts: 7623
Joined: 2006
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
Hi Brian,
Great detailed post on incendiary bombing of Tokyo towards the end of WWII. Do you think Japan would have surrendered at this time if it wasn't for their Warhawks Military leaders, & the Bushido code!??
Probably would of been for the better if they had surrendered here??
What say you?
MD
Of course hind site it's is 20-20!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
|
Posts: 1702
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
The Imperial cabinet was deadlocked on surrender at the time of the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. Prior to that the militarists had the lock.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
|
Posts: 1702
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
I look at the references to see what the author is going to say. I'm pretty good at that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
|
Posts: 4574
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
OP, Hidecki Tojo’s resignation as Prime Minister (PM) took place on 18 July 1945. He had been PM since Oct 1941, so was instrumental in early Japanese war commitments and decisions. I believe, but I’m not sure, that General Tojo had lost the confidence of the Imperial War Cabinet by the time he resigned. You say the cabinet was deadlocked on the issue of surrender until 9 Aug. Do you know whether – since they were probably redefining their power and direction, there were other issues also hampering critical decisions which had to be made? I can imagine there were a number, up to and including pardons for the Emporer and his Family. But I’ve not read about that in depth.
Thoughts?
Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
|
Posts: 1702
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
Today in World War II
|
My books are in storage right now, not going to trust my memory too far.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
