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 (1939-1945) WWII
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Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
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9/1/2022 10:15:55 PM
In the early hours of Sept 1, 1939, German forces – under the pretence of rejecting a Polish incursion into Germany – invaded Poland. Two days later, after a great deal of arm-flapping and a much confusion, first Great Britain and then France, finding their ultimatums for German withdrawal unmet, declared war on Hitler’s Third Reich.

Hitler, we are told, was close to being dumbfounded by the declarations; he had been assured by Ribbentrop that the UK (usually misnamed England) and France would mimic their Munich behaviour. In saying this, Ribbentrop was probably echoing Hitler’s own hopes and assessments. At the same time, there are signs that Hitler felt humiliated by Munich, and was pushing for a test of military force: he wanted to become more than a political/cultural leader, and lead his nation into battle.

The actual assault on Poland was largely made possible through the improbable diplomatic coup of the Ribbentrop/Molotov non-aggression treaty, signed 23 August. Soviet Russia, after all, had its own claims on territory in the Baltic, and the Moscow/Berlin Agreement provided Hitler at least some assurance that he could attack to the east without worrying about facing Soviet forces. Stalin’s Soviet Russia, on the other hand, gained at least some freedom from assault by an avowed enemy, some “rights” to territory in the eastern Baltic, including portions of Poland, and at least a chance to restructure their military leadership after horrendous purges of the late 1930s.

The declarations of war had no tactical meaning, of course, though the Poles expected British and French commitments to mean boots on the ground. The Brits fortified areas of northern France against a German assault west, and – on their second day of the war – apparently dropped millions of leaflets over Germany. The French called up an army of 6 million reservists, but basically filled the “impregnable” Maginot Line in a clear defensive posture.

I’ve had a keyboard failure. I’m hoping this post might open discussion on causes and strategies leading to and furthering WW2, including socio-political issues. Why, for instance, was Mussolini such a force in the first year of the war, when it seemed clear that Italy was not committed to war?

Gotta go and work out this keyboard issue.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
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9/2/2022 3:00:53 AM
Brian,

For someone suffering from keyboard malfunction you’ve made a superb post .

A huge topic and you’ve touched on many facets of it.

It’s particularly interesting to read that Hitler was “ dumbfounded “ by the Anglo French declaration of war.

So much to think about !

Thanks for pitching this to us.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1515
Joined: 2010
It All Begins …
9/2/2022 7:07:17 AM
When I took undergrad historiography at Purdue I did a paper on the effect of the M-R pact on Russian and German cinema.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
It All Begins …
9/2/2022 7:43:22 AM
Poland was invaded by both Nazi German on September 1, 1939 and by Soviet Russia on September 17. 1939

Both started WW II.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/2/2022 8:26:16 AM
Brian’s point about Mussolini is discerning.

His prestige was greatly enhanced by his role in brokering the Munich agreement.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/2/2022 7:02:41 PM
OP writes: Quote:
When I took undergrad historiography at Purdue I did a paper on the effect of the M-R pact on Russian and German cinema.

OP, would you mind expanding this a little? Are you thinking of the impact of the pact on propaganda movies during the time the pact remained in place? About other films of the time not deemed an arm of either country’s propaganda machine? And/or about a larger impact on cinema in the two countries in the years after the war?

I seem to remember reading somewhere about alterations being demanded to certain Soviet productions (whether cinematic or musical/operatic), but that was a long time ago.

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/2/2022 8:07:21 PM
NYGiant, you post: Quote:
Poland was invaded by both Nazi German on September 1, 1939 and by Soviet Russia on September 17. 1939

Both started WW II.

According to some interpretations, that is accurate. According to other versions, things are not so simple. IIUC, the Ribbentrop/Molotov Pact was basically a non-aggression pact. Certain side-agreements included German/Soviet agreements on various territories. As Soviet forces prepared to engage in Poland, the agreement as I understand it was that Germany, having effectively destroyed Poland as a functioning nation, was ceding those areas of eastern Poland over which Soviet Russia and Poland had fought. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, still largely under the influence of Russia though arguing independence, would fall under Soviet edicts calling them something like “military districts”.

I think the point is that none of the area spreading along the south coast of the Baltic Sea and/or Gulf of Finland was stable. The area was in truth a League of Nations/post Versailles Treaty division of territory to support the victors (even if they didn’t exist!) and punish the losers.

I’m not rejecting your comment, by any means. But at the same time, there was never a mutual defence pact between Germany and Soviet Russia. Neither France nor GB declared war on Soviet Russia for its actions in Poland, though 24 days earlier they both had committed to war for Germany’s attack on Poland. IIUC, Poland never did offer an official surrender. They moved their government to England and fought with support from the British against German control over their homeland.

I don’t buy into the idea that by 17 Sept 1939 we were in WW2. I’m not even comfortable with seeing this a European War that early in the conflict. After the collapse of the Polish military, there were three countries at war: Germany; Great Britain, and France. After the collapse of Polish resistance, there were months of minimal conflict. Some naval conflict; some all but totally effective air force raiding; little meaningful contest between the French and German forces along their mutual border.

There was, of course, the Winter War between the Soviets and Finland, which changed the status quo only in that it changed the stasis of the ongoing “phoney war” in the west. With Germany’s move against Denmark and Norway, of course, we stepped into a broader, more dangerous conflict. With the German assault on France and the Low countries, and the commitment of Italy to the Fascist cause, the war spread sufficiently to be seen as a world war.

Sorry, a lot of what I’ve written is accepted knowledge presented as semi-rant.

In truth, I’ve not yet seen a convincing argument concerning the Soviet incursion into either the Baltic States or into Poland. I remain, to a large part because of what I have never read anyone say, sceptical of any role Soviet forces may have played in starting WW2, based on their activities against Polish land claims in 1939.

Cheers
Brian G





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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1515
Joined: 2010
It All Begins …
9/3/2022 8:20:38 AM
Don't tell me who wins, I'm still reading.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/4/2022 10:20:41 PM
OP, do you want to know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall? I read the news today. …

Cheers
B
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
It All Begins …
9/5/2022 3:58:59 PM
comment below....


NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
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9/5/2022 4:27:02 PM
Brian,

IIRC, the M-R Pact was non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. It certainly was not a non-aggresion pact toward Poland. Article II of the secret protocols called for..."In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.In any event both governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement."



The reason Great Britain did not declare war against the Soviet Union, is in the pact that Great Britain made with Poland. It specifically called for, and limited the British obligation to protect Poland to ‘aggression’ from Germany. To admit to this secret section of the treaty would only provoke curiosity about the existence of similar secret protocols attached to other treaties. Plus, since Great Britain was unable to fulfill its treaty obligation against one aggressor nation, if could hardly be depended on to defend against 2 aggressor nations. France would do nothing alone.

The Pact between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia did call for neither country aiding any third party that attacked either signatory.

It is my impression that Poland soundly defeated the Soviet Russia Army at the battle of the Vistula when the Soviet Army was hit in the flank by the last great cavalry charge of the 20th Century, rolling up the Russian flank. As the Russians retreated, Stalin accompanied that army with his tail between his legs. And since that part of Poland was once part of Czarist Russia, that certainly is a convincing argument to go to war. Realize that the end of World War II, now with he Soviets as Allies, they demanded and reclaimed that part of Eastern Poland.

I think we can both agree that both the Germans and the Russians, once in control , embarked on a systematic extermination of Polish society.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/5/2022 7:54:49 PM
NYGiant, lotsa good stuff in your post, including some clarification that I appreciate. Thank you.

Your point about secret protocols, both in the West (GB-Poland; GB-French; French-Polish; German-Italian) and the East (R-M), is noted; IIUC all had secret/private protocols, and all treaties/agreements were broken despite or because of those protocols. GB, I have read, wrote that specific clause into the last of the versions of the pact with Poland as a strongly-worded warning to Germany. That it would also give BG an escape route when the Soviets entered Poland may or may not have been planned, but a war against Germany and the Soviet Union would have been beyond GB’s capabilities, particularly since Italy would have been tempted to step in as well.

At least part of the issue raised by the Soviet attack on Poland might have concerned whether Poland still existed as a state; the 17th brought both the Soviet incursion and the transfer of power to the Polish Government in Exile. I can’t even imagine what a diplomat might be able to make of that nuance! Nevertheless, I believe you are correct in suggesting that, for various reasons, both GB and France realized quickly that their offer of support to Poland was an impossible promise to keep. By September 2, both nations were making speeches to themselves about going to war to defend their honour, rather than to support Poland.

I will admit I’m a bit confused about your reference to the Polish Cavalry charge against the Soviets. I assume you are not referring to any part of the Soviet invasion of 1939, but are noting the 1920 mix-up. If something like that happened in 1939, I’ve not heard of it.

You close with, “I think we can both agree that both the Germans and the Russians, once in control , embarked on a systematic extermination of Polish society.
Personally, I believe that Nazi Germany was far more extreme than the Soviets, though either was textbook butchery in some ways. Germany needed land to feed the Reich and slaves to grow the crops. Nazi doctrine defined Poles, Slavs, Jews and Romanys as Üntermenschen, so they had no rights within the Reich. Soviet behaviour was also punitive (the slaughter of Polish army cadets at Katyn was one extreme example), but it seems to me the Soviets were torn between remembering many of these folk were traditional Russians who, as rebels, needed to be punished, but who might be rehabilitated. A lotta camps in the USSR north-east filled up pretty quickly. Not a nice place to find onesself, of course, but better than a mass burial site.

Cheers
Brian G

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
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9/5/2022 10:05:22 PM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for agreeing with my comments.

A few clarifications.

1. Polish diplomats evidently did suffer under Soviet rule. The Polish consul in Kiev was arrested by the Soviet NKVD and was never seen again.

2. In the Miracle of the Vistula which occurred in the Polish-Soviet War, was won by the Poles. Polish Cavalry found itself on the unguarded flank of the Russian Army and rolled them up, firing them to retreat. Stalin was with that Soviet Army. That is where his hatred for Poland developed.

3. The Soviets murdered captured Polish Army officers, not cadets.

4. The Germans decapitated Polish society in the West, the Soviets in the East. The Nazis practiced an ethnic genocide, the Soviets a political genocide.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
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9/9/2022 10:04:09 PM
NYG, I like your way with words in your point 4.

Am I wrong in thinking that “beween-the-wars Poland” was firmly nationalistic, predominantly militaristic, and strongly against both German and Russia/Soviets? As a new nation which had already fought off early Bolshevik attacks (1920), a large military might be understandable; I’m not certain that Polish militance best assured a long national existence.

I’m certainly not offering support for Russian actions under Soviet leadership. But, to reiterate slightly, I believe there was a distinction between German and Soviet actions which was – on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, while – on the Soviet side – an attempt to remove political and military forces while attempting to reclaim many of the citizens for Mother Russia. I still see Soviet action against a defeated Poland not as a genocide but as a political exorcism.

Am I nitpicking?

Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
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9/10/2022 10:51:16 AM
I don't believe you can take a snap-shot of the inter-war years, 1919-1939, and make generalizations. Poland was created by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919, taking parts of Imperial Russia, Imperial Germany and the Austria-Hungary to form Poland. As you recall from world history, Poland in the late 18th century had undergone a series of partitions by those 3 countries.

What complicates the picture to a large degree was the surrender of Soviet Russia to Imperial Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire , which ended Soviet Russia's participation in the war. The Soviets abandoned their allies in the West. Not only did Imperial Germany send troops West to defeat the Allies, but also took control of parts of Soviet Russia. At the end of the war with Germany surrendering, the Soviets re-nounced the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and planed to use the war to capture these lands also to invade the new state of Poland as a bridge to bring Communism to Poland and Germany. As the German troops went back to Germany, the Soviets intended to occupy those lands, that were now part of the Polish Republic.

The Poles were intent on reclaiming their pre-1772 boundaries.

Now, as far as Nationalism is concerned, Poland was made up of various ethnic groups. The Polish historian Norman Davies estimates that 68.9% of the population were Polish, 13.9% were Ukranian, 10% were Jewish, 3.1% were Belarusians, 2.3% were German, and the rest were Czechs, Romani, Armenians. So, basically 1/3 of the nation were non-Poles, which tempered any Nationalism.

As far as militaristic, Poland had to fight a war against the Soviets which did save Europe from the Bolsheviks. Not only has Poland stood as a barrier to the Bolsheviks, if you recall from history, it was the Polish Winged Hussars led by King John Sobieski which defeated the Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna in 1683. Poland served as a barrier against the Muslim faith.

Recall from studying geography that Poland has no natural barriers. It consists of the Northern European Plain which has been used as a road to invasion. As far as militaristic, Poland was as militaristic as the state of Israel in 1948, who also had to fight off invaders after r the British Mandate of Palestine had expired.

Your comment....." on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, "

Germany practiced a form of ethnic genocide with the extermination of the Slavs and Jews. How you can say that genocide is acceptable, is maybe the dumbest most asinine, most ignorant comment I have ever read.

So no, I don't think you are nit-picking. You are just showing your ignorance.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
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9/10/2022 3:07:11 PM
Brian may well defend himself but I read his post and did not detect any approval of genocide. I did see that he differentiated between the motivations of the Soviets and the Germans to eliminate a segment of the Polish population.

No need to attack NYGiant. Everyone is pretty friendly here.

George
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
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9/10/2022 5:15:49 PM
For Nazi Germans, genocide - in its purely ethnic sense- was an acceptable attribute of their creed.

For the Soviets, the obliteration of the Polish intelligentsia and officer corps was acceptable, too.

If Brian Grafton is ignorant, then God help the rest of us !

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
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9/10/2022 7:16:12 PM
NYGiant, you write: Quote:
Your [meaning BG’s: ed] comment....." on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, "

Germany practiced a form of ethnic genocide with the extermination of the Slavs and Jews. How you can say that genocide is acceptable, is maybe the dumbest most asinine, most ignorant comment I have ever read.


My sentence, or at lest the first part of it, reads: “But, to reiterate slightly, I believe there was a distinction between German and Soviet actions which was – on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, while – on the Soviet side – an attempt to remove political and military forces …”. I had though that I was clear enough in suggesting German actions were based on what was an accepted German cultural value at the time. I see no reason to reject that statement, but please see below for some further thoughts – if you wish to waste your time.

I certainly do not support, condone, deny or minimize genocidal practices, whether in Cambodia, Ruanda, Armenia, Germany or elsewhere. If I have led you to believe I was advocating for genocide, I apologize with utmost sincerity. I hope, however, that you merely misread or misinterpreted my comment.

I have trouble with what I wrote only because my comment implies German public support for Nazi practices, where it may be more accurate to think of German acquiescence to Nazi doctrine which perhaps no-one believed might be implemented.

Cheers
Brian G

PS: with thanks to those who read my sentence the way I expected it to be read.

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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
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9/10/2022 8:23:44 PM
To think that genocide is a cultural value, is a-historical, and is an insult to those who died. In fact, it does condone what the Germans did. ( To use the term Nazi Germany implies that there was another Germany, when there wasn't.)
The fact that the Germans never protested any genocides implies support of their leadership.

In fact, genocide is a crime against humanity. And that was the charge against the captured German leadership.

There, I fixed your comment for you

You're welcome!







Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1520
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/10/2022 8:57:43 PM
Quote:
NYGiant, you write: Quote:
Your [meaning BG’s: ed] comment....." on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, "

Germany practiced a form of ethnic genocide with the extermination of the Slavs and Jews. How you can say that genocide is acceptable, is maybe the dumbest most asinine, most ignorant comment I have ever read.


My sentence, or at lest the first part of it, reads: “But, to reiterate slightly, I believe there was a distinction between German and Soviet actions which was – on the German side – based on an acceptable obliteration of an entire population, while – on the Soviet side – an attempt to remove political and military forces …”. I had though that I was clear enough in suggesting German actions were based on what was an accepted German cultural value at the time. I see no reason to reject that statement, but please see below for some further thoughts – if you wish to waste your time.

I certainly do not support, condone, deny or minimize genocidal practices, whether in Cambodia, Ruanda, Armenia, Germany or elsewhere. If I have led you to believe I was advocating for genocide, I apologize with utmost sincerity. I hope, however, that you merely misread or misinterpreted my comment.

I have trouble with what I wrote only because my comment implies German public support for Nazi practices, where it may be more accurate to think of German acquiescence to Nazi doctrine which perhaps no-one believed might be implemented.

Cheers
Brian G

PS: with thanks to those who read my sentence the way I expected it to be read.




I can be quite dense at times, yet I fully understood the point Brian was making about the Germans and Soviets.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Brian Grafton
Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 4410
Joined: 2004
It All Begins …
9/10/2022 9:33:11 PM
NYGiant, I beg your pardon? You think you what? Oh dear …
B
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
It All Begins …
9/10/2022 11:02:16 PM
You new-comers to. the study of World War II evidently don't understand the meaning of the word...culture.

here ...pick your own definition.
the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time

the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations

enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training

Germany in the Franco-Prussian War and during World War I never did try and exterminate the captured civilian population ( though some atrocities did occur). So, to now condone the genocide as part of German culture is a specious argument

Murder is murder, and to try and sugar-coat it as part of a "culture" is trying to make allowances for the practice of genocide.

Nice try though boys. Good then I am here to set you straight.

Or do you need another lesson?
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
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9/11/2022 6:25:55 AM
BG....Your comment...."After the collapse of the Polish military, there were three countries at war: Germany; Great Britain, and France."

That is not completely correct. The Polish Government in exile continued Poland's participation in the War. If you ever read military history, you will read that Poles were involved in fighting in Norway, and that Polish pilots were the greatest % of foreign pilots who defended Great Britain in the Battle of Britain. The Polish 1st Armored Division closed the Falaise Gap, and the Polish 2nd Corps defeated the Germans at Monte Cassino opening up the road to Rome. Poles also obtained the Enigma device which allowed the Allies to learn of German intentions.

Another comment that I fixed for you.

Could you give me the citation for your comment that the Russians only murdered Polish Army cadets at Katyn Forest? Thats is another erroneous comment.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
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9/11/2022 9:34:56 AM
Why so testy, NYGiant? This is a forum for discussion and yet you seem to have adopted the communication style of the modern period in which it seems acceptable to insult and challenge the education and intellectual capacity and capability of others, behind the anonymity of this communications web.

It isn't necessary you know. There are good people here who want to hear what you have to say minus the daggers.

Cheers,


George
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1105
Joined: 2005
It All Begins …
9/11/2022 12:21:35 PM
Quote:
You new-comers to. the study of World War II evidently don't understand the meaning of the word...culture.



There goes Fonzi, the shark awaits.


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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3061
Joined: 2010
It All Begins …
9/11/2022 3:34:42 PM
NYG,

Can it be that you are of Polish ancestry ? This might explain your overeaction, bordering on completely unnecesary arrogant insults.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
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9/11/2022 4:09:14 PM
No

I am just a student of World War II history
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3061
Joined: 2010
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9/11/2022 6:34:27 PM
Quote:
No

I am just a student of World War II history


Student as in "at university" or someone who has read a lot.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
17thfabn
Ohio OH USA
Posts: 181
Joined: 2008
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9/11/2022 7:26:04 PM
Quote:

Nice try though boys. Good then I am here to set you straight.

Or do you need another lesson?


Thank goodness you have arrived! Militaryhistoryonline.com has been around for 20 + years. We have been eagerly awaiting your arrival to set us straight!

I have only been studying World War II history for about 50 years. But I freely admit I have much to learn. Every time I read a book on the subject I learn something new.

Welcome to the forum. You may want to tone down your attitude just a little.
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Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
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9/11/2022 7:29:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
No

I am just a student of World War II history


Student as in "at university" or someone who has read a lot.

Trevor

I "wish" I was back at university!
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
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9/11/2022 7:31:21 PM
I got you beat. I've been studying it for 50+ years.

With several staff rides of the Ardennes, Normandy and Monte Cassino, Gettysburg, Antietam, Vicksburg Chancellorsville, The Wilderness, Spotsylvania and the 1862 Valley Campaign under my belt. under my belt.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3061
Joined: 2010
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9/11/2022 8:25:06 PM
Quote:
I got you beat.


How do you know you´ve got me beat ?

Trevor


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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
vpatrick
MA MA USA
Posts: 2316
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9/11/2022 10:21:09 PM
NyGiant

Winston Churchill one of histories greatest men got stuff wrong, "Gallipoli" . If you are indeed a student of history you must realize that you have the ability to get stuff wrong, even Winston Churchill realized he got stuff wrong. For you to be so sure you have it right and nobody else does is a silly position. Maybe you are young and know it all but the folks here posting may have different positions but they know their history. I would guess nobody taught you manners because you talk like a spoiled child and you get touchy in a simple conversation about a topic that happened 80 years ago.

And if you are old as you say,

You act like a child

vpatrick



p.s

just say your opinions no need to insult others its not Twitter
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nuts
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
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9/12/2022 8:27:22 AM

Good Morning! Another day with the MHO Historians!!


Pesky thin those pesky facts. What is so wrong in correcting a comment that is wrong? I hate it when the pesky facts get in the pesky way.

At Katyn Forest, the Soviets murdered captured Polish Army officers...NOT cadets.

If a comment like that is not corrected, then someone who is not as well informed, would believe it. And that would perpetuate what did not happen.

What you call a spoiled child, I call push-back. And if you can't defend your position, don't make the comment. And don't get upset when someone like me holds your feet to the fire.

You have noticed that no-one challenged me when I corrected that mis-statement.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
It All Begins …
9/12/2022 8:55:30 AM
Others may call it ill mannered, NYGiant. You're playing, "gotcha" history and that is rarely productive on this forum.

Many have been taken aback at your anti-social behaviour and really, whether the slaughter at Katyn was of Polish officers or cadets is not a major issue. And if inaccurately stated, there are other ways to correct that do not diminish the person that made the statement. People on this forum actually welcome that sort of information if delivered in a socially acceptable manner.

I have reread many of the threads here and I cannot see a point where you have been insulted by others here. If that is the case, please tell us so that we may make amends.

Telling others that they are ignorant or poor students of military history is hardly a way to make inroads on a discussion forum, is it?
How many times have you boasted that you have "corrected" some inaccuracy in this short exchange. It is pretentious to do so.

Perhaps you have another purpose in registering as a participant here.

Is there any chance that you have been a member of this forum before but under another pseudonym?

Cheers,

George
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
It All Begins …
9/12/2022 9:11:40 AM
Hiya George,

Correcting a statement about history, is not playing 'gotcha". When I took tests, you were marked wrong if you put down the wrong answer. The sine of 90 degrees is 1. Thats a fact.

Now, one may not like that someone is pushing back. I think it is a good way to examine the facts and to defend a position. If one is confident in their knowledge, then it doesn't really matter if one pushes back.

Or are we just to read everything here and accept it as gospel?

Stay safe man.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
It All Begins …
9/12/2022 2:06:52 PM
NYGiant, I think that you are well aware that no-one objects or has objected to discussion or corrections on this forum.

There will be objections to ill mannered behaviour, however. That is what you are choosing to ignore.

I do hope that we all may engage in enlightening discourse without attempts to diminish or disrespect the other.

You stay safe too,

George
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
It All Begins …
9/12/2022 2:59:35 PM
Georgie, the Holocaust was not part of German culture but a German crime against humanity.

I look forward to any discourse where ideas and knowledge can be exchanged too.

stay safe man.



George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
It All Begins …
9/12/2022 7:24:56 PM
"Georgie"? Really, NYGiant. Well, I've tried. You keep digging.

George
Michael00
washington WA USA
Posts: 1
Joined: 2022
It All Begins …
9/24/2022 3:09:48 AM
Well, It was happened during that time when German invaded Poland. But the history goes beyond this boundary, there are many other factors are included in it, like history of many other Americans, Black Africans and their struggle in World War2. You can also get more insights about history from different sources and can be included in it. Check the article for more info. https://www.aroundrobin.com/nat-turners/

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