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17thfabn
Ohio OH USA
Posts: 161
Joined: 2008
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 12:13:27 PM
I am currently reading "The Dead and Those About to Die" by John McManus.

It is about the U.S. 1st Infantry Division during the Normandy landings.

They talk about how ineffective the pre landing aerial and naval bombardment was.

It got me thinking would heavy use of smoke have helped? Or was the wind conditions such that it would have quickly moved covering smoke in the wrong way?
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morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2979
Joined: 2007
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 12:54:54 PM
I believe some smoke was used...but the weather conditions were such that the smoke could not be controlled anyway. In addition, smoke can be a double edged sword..it can conceal the attackers, but conceals enemy positions as well. Smoke would also obscure the landing the beach LZ`s from their assigned landing craft ( which happened in many cases anyway) and would obscure the targets for cover-fire.
Smoke can be useful, but when the Airborne carried out an amphibious assault across the Waal river...the smoke wafted away quickly and did little good in concealing anything.

Respect, Morris
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DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1035
Joined: 2005
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 4:44:13 PM
Based on the information and video's I have watched, winds were blowing from East/NorthEast in the direction of West/Southwest. Sky's were cloudy but not so heavy that it prevented Paratroop drops and glider landings. But, it was not the winds that scattered the troopers all about the landing areas, that was largely due to aircrews piloting the planes. By midday of June 6th, the sky's cleared up and the sea settled down a bit.

The timing of the assault, based on the meteorological "forecasts" made by Captain James Stagg and his team allowed for the assault to take place in that small window of 'weather time' of June 6th, had Ike delayed until the opportune tides for later in June, the weather then was much worse those few weeks later.

As a side note, based on the article I posted below: "June 1944 was one of the windiest of the century in southeastern England, with only 1917 windier, going back to 1895."[i/]

[Read More]

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17thfabn
Ohio OH USA
Posts: 161
Joined: 2008
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 10:22:36 PM
Quote:
I believe some smoke was used...but the weather conditions were such that the smoke could not be controlled anyway. In addition, smoke can be a double edged sword..it can conceal the attackers, but conceals enemy positions as well.

Respect, Morris


Take a situation where the landing craft are coming in and men are scrambling off the beach are more or less siting ducks in a shooting gallery . "Blindness" would probably work in the attackers favor.

I read a book years ago by a captain from the 116 Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division. On D-Day they landed with the 1st Infantry Division. He stated that one of the most useful effects of the pre invasion bombardment was fires that were started. The smoke helped shield their movement.
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Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/22/2021 12:57:12 PM
"Smokers", landing craft equipped with chemical smoke dispensers, were an integral part of the landing plan, but proved ineffective because of the prevailing wind speed, which dispersed the smoke too quickly. The accidental grass firs started by shelling between DOG and EASY on OMAHA did produce lasting smoke, which helped shelter the landing of the reserve battalion of the 116th Infantry and 5th Ranger Battalion.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 6982
Joined: 2006
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 1:02:48 PM
Quote:
I am currently reading "The Dead and Those About to Die" by John McManus.

It is about the U.S. 1st Infantry Division during the Normandy landings.

They talk about how ineffective the pre landing aerial and naval bombardment was.

It got me thinking would heavy use of smoke have helped? Or was the wind conditions such that it would have quickly moved covering smoke in the wrong way?



Hi Guys, 2022 issue,

We talked about a D-day threads, here may be a start, what kind of smoke screens were used?? I'm sure some type of shielding the landings was used or at least attempted?

Probably ships, or maybe planes,
What say you??
MD

BTW we can use this as WWII D-day thread or create a new one??
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1430
Joined: 2010
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 7:42:46 PM
The USN kept meteorological data routinely, there should be a very complete set of numbers for this event.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12242
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 9:18:09 PM
The British MET office has extensive archives on weather conditions on D-day.

I downloaded this booklet from the MET archives and it indicate observations taken in the Caen area after 7-8 hours of landing activities:

Broken cloud
Good visibility
Onshore winds rated at Beaufort Force 4.

[Read More]


Beaufort 4 is considered to be a moderate breeze with 11-16 knot winds.

Even at that, when I checked the Beaufort scale, those winds would contribute to 3-5 foot waves with frequent white caps.

Must have been unpleasant for the troops coming in, let alone the DD tanks.


We know that Eisenhower fretted over the selection of the day for D-day and based upon recommendations of Chief Meterological Officer Stagg, he chose June 6 when June 4-6 proved to be too risky.

Later Stagg sent him a report on June 21 describing the weather conditions from June 17-21 which I believe was the next period after June 6 in which it was felt that the attack could go in.

The weather proved to be miserable in that time period thus indicating to DDE that he had made the correct choice.

This has been called the "Gods of War" memo because Eisenhower jotted a thank you note to Stagg in which he said, "Thanks, and thank the Gods of War we went when we did."

You may download the memo here.

[Read More]

cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5526
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 3:21:14 AM
This terrifying dilemma about the weather and whether to go or not was the subject of a play called PRESSURE, starring David Haig as John Stagg. It was staged in London several years ago, and we were thoroughly captivated by it.

In the meantime, I’ve been wondering about whether to deploy some CWGC statistics , indicating the varying degrees of intensity as the British and Canadian soldiers were committed to various offensives through the twelve weeks of fighting that followed D-day.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12242
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 7:35:54 AM
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3003
Joined: 2010
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 2:24:20 PM
Quote:
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George


Yes Phil. I am no expert on D-Day but have looked more at the Falaise Gap where my wife´s grandfather fell.

Trevor
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Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5526
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/12/2022 7:34:49 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George


Yes Phil. I am no expert on D-Day but have looked more at the Falaise Gap where my wife´s grandfather fell.

Trevor



Sigrid’s grandfather ? He must’ve been well into his middle age in 1944 .

Was he an officer, or senior NCO, Trevor ?

The Poles put up a tremendous fight against the Germans who were desperately trying to get out of that fatal gap.

They were attached to the Canadian army , but made their unique contribution.

It was surely a terrible time for those Poles in Normandy, as they were thinking of their brothers and sisters who were fighting to the death at the same time in Warsaw.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12242
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/12/2022 10:23:17 AM
Indeed, the stand by the 1st Polish Armoured on Maczuga (The Mace) is a great story from WWII. The Poles were the cork in the bottle at the Falaise Gap and they were attacked on all sides by German units who were supposed to keep the bottle neck open.

They were attached to the 1st Canadian Army and went into combat on Aug. 8 during Operation Totalize. Their commander was General Maczek. They were ordered by Lt. Gen. Guy Simmonds to occupy Mt. Ormel or Hill 262 which was shaped like a mace, hence the Polish name for the battle ground, Maczuga.

The Germans did manage to keep one corridor open that allowed many to escape but thousands were captured or destroyed by artillery and aircraft.

The Poles were ready to die on this hill. They had been told by a critically wounded officer that there was no point to surrender.

Quote:
"Gentlemen, everything is lost. I do not think the Canadians can come to our rescue. We are down to one hundred and ten fit men. No more supplies, very little ammunition, five shells per gun, and fifty rounds per man! That’s not very much...you must fight all the same! As you know, it is useless surrendering to the SS! I thank you: tonight we shall die for Poland and for civilization!"


Major Stefanowicz



The Canadian forces could not immediately relieve the Poles on Hill 262. They were on their own and when the Canadians finally got there on Aug. 21, they could see the carnage on the hill and below where the Poles had destroyed so many German SS soldiers and their equipment. The Canadians erected a small sign in tribute to their Polish brothers. It said simply, "A Polish Battlefield".

By the end, the Poles had little to fight with and that allowed too many Germans to escape. There weren't sufficient numbers of troops at the neck of the bottle to stop them.

But in 72 hours of continuous fighting, the Polish losses were 325 dead, 1,002 wounded, and 114 missing out of about 1500 men.

Today a museum and monument sits atop Montormel as a tribute to those who fought the Battle of the Falaise Pocket and especially the Poles.



I wish to get there someday.

Cheers,

George



NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 8
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
8/7/2022 8:26:40 PM
The museum at MountOrmel is one of the finest , focused museums I have ever visited. There is a nice presentation with a map, and then they open up the windows and you get a look at the terrain.

It was the Polish 1st Armored Division that fought here. They had to fight the Germans in front of them trying to escape, and fight the Germans behind them who were trying to keep the gap open.

This area is very well interpreted with kiosk describing the action.

NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 8
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
8/8/2022 7:52:24 AM
The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings.

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