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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Even Balkoski backs my comments on the current.
On page 182-183 of Utah Beach, Joseph Balkoski's seminal work "Then there was the offshore current, that phenomenon of Normandy that could swiftly make even experienced sailors look like landlubbers. The U.S. Navy could hardly profess ignorance of the current's effects, as top-secret Overlord orders had repeatedly warned landing craft crews what to expect. Off Utah Beach, the current was particularly powerful, flowing alternately north and south at nearly four miles per hour at its peak. Furthermore, at high -and low tide peaks, its behavior was almost supernatural, as it abruptly reversed itself and eventually regained its astonishing momentum in the opposite direction , a process that coursed regularly three or four times per day.
Even the meticulously prepared Overlord invasion documents could not claim to understand exactly how the currents worked, and all their impressive tables of facts and figures were accompanied by the stark warning: "Use With Caution". To add to the confusion, there were several baffling secondary currents off the eastern Cotentin: one actually flowed in a circle, and another alternately pushed and pulled water into and out of the Bancs du Grand Vey estuary at the southeastern base of the peninsula, where the Douve and Vire Rivers flowed into the sea. It was, as many sailors commented, a hell of a place to fight a war.......No matter how many times sailors had been warned about the current, it was not easy even for skilled navigators aboard the guide ships to compensate for its subtle effects. As H-hour approached and LCVP coxswains and DD tank drivers made their final runs onto the beach, the current shoved them inexorably southward , a process that sailors and soldier may not even have noticed...."
Anything else I can help you with?
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Do you have this book? I'd send you my copy but I've made numerous notations.
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RichTO90
Bremerton
WA USA
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Posts: 711
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote: Even Balkoski backs my comments on the current.
Like most aging dogmatists you can't seem to actually focus on the question, which is why you can't answer and instead keep circling back to things that aren't at issue.
To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.
You were quite simply wrong in your statement. The current in the water was well-appreciated prior to the landings. What may have been less well-appreciated is what effect the known currents combined with the wind would have, mostly because the decision was taken to execute the landing with wind conditions at the upper boundary of what was acceptable, and how that was going to play out with the state of training and capabilities of the coxswains.
Since then you have been dully repeating that "it was the offshore current which pushed the landing craft South", which simply isn't either the question or answer. Of course the current - and east to west wind at OMAHA - pushed the landing craft...that is what currents and winds do.
What you keep ignoring is that the effect of the current and wind - what it did - was very different between OMAHA and UTAH.
At OMAHA, essentially every craft LCM and larger landed more or less correctly. OTOH, the smaller craft, the LCVP and LCA, were mostly badly dispersed. Not only did they land at the wrong beaches, but the boat formations were broken up, with ones and twos landing on different locations, and they landed at many different times rather than under the carefully planned schedule.
On UTAH, the entire boat formation remained more or less intact and landed in the planned formation and timing but some 2,400 yards southeast of where it was supposed to land. You simply can't seem to wrap your head around the anomaly and why it was so. There's actually a very simple answer but I doubt you'll ever figure it out.
Yes, Balkoski is quite good but Caddick-Adams is pretty derivative of previous work and brought no new sources to the table.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Happy Thanksgiving!
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote:Quote: Even Balkoski backs my comments on the current. Like most aging dogmatists you can't seem to actually focus on the question, which is why you can't answer and instead keep circling back to things that aren't at issue. To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings. You were quite simply wrong in your statement. The current in the water was well-appreciated prior to the landings. What may have been less well-appreciated is what effect the known currents combined with the wind would have, mostly because the decision was taken to execute the landing with wind conditions at the upper boundary of what was acceptable, and how that was going to play out with the state of training and capabilities of the coxswains. Since then you have been dully repeating that "it was the offshore current which pushed the landing craft South", which simply isn't either the question or answer. Of course the current - and east to west wind at OMAHA - pushed the landing craft...that is what currents and winds do. What you keep ignoring is that the effect of the current and wind - what it did - was very different between OMAHA and UTAH. At OMAHA, essentially every craft LCM and larger landed more or less correctly. OTOH, the smaller craft, the LCVP and LCA, were mostly badly dispersed. Not only did they land at the wrong beaches, but the boat formations were broken up, with ones and twos landing on different locations, and they landed at many different times rather than under the carefully planned schedule. On UTAH, the entire boat formation remained more or less intact and landed in the planned formation and timing but some 2,400 yards southeast of where it was supposed to land. You simply can't seem to wrap your head around the anomaly and why it was so. There's actually a very simple answer but I doubt you'll ever figure it out. Yes, Balkoski is quite good but Caddick-Adams is pretty derivative of previous work and brought no new sources to the table.
Since you agree with Balkoski, you agree with me!
Thank you for your support!
Happy Thanksgiving!
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RichTO90
Bremerton
WA USA
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Posts: 711
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote:
Happy Thanksgiving!
And to you!
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RichTO90
Bremerton
WA USA
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Posts: 711
Joined: 2004
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote: Since you agree with Balkoski, you agree with me!
Were you dropped on your head when you were little?
While I may "agree" with Balkoski that has nothing to do with you being very wrong in what you said.
To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote:Quote: Since you agree with Balkoski, you agree with me! Were you dropped on your head when you were little? While I may "agree" with Balkoski that has nothing to do with you being very wrong in what you said. To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.
Good Morning,
Though quite a few things happened to me when I was little, being dropped on the head isn't one of them. Mostly I scraped my knees.
I think Balkoski nailed it. He is saying that the US Navy was "aware" of the currents. He also says that even those warnings, one must use caution, since "No matter how many times sailors had been warned about the current, it was not easy even for skilled navigators aboard the guide ships to compensate for its subtle effects." Basically, they did not appreciate how treacherous those currents were.
I would modify your comment that "awareness" was published in the tide tables.
Now, I am using the definition of appreciate as a transitive verb....
If you appreciate a situation or problem, you understand it and know what it involves.
She never really appreciated the depth and bitterness of the family's conflict.
I agree semantics, but woids have meanings.
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RichTO90
Bremerton
WA USA
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Posts: 711
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote: I agree semantics, but woids have meanings.
I agree that "words" have meanings but that has nothing to do with you being very wrong in what you said. Your "words" have meanings too.
To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.
Balkoski may have "nailed" something but I doubt what he "nailed" is his assessment of what the US Navy or any of the NEPTUNE planners were "aware" of vis a vis the currents and tides since he does not cite any of the original sources that would have told him what that state of "awareness" was.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote:Quote: I agree semantics, but woids have meanings. I agree that "words" have meanings but that has nothing to do with you being very wrong in what you said. Your "words" have meanings too. To recapitulate, you stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landings were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings. Balkoski may have "nailed" something but I doubt what he "nailed" is his assessment of what the US Navy or any of the NEPTUNE planners were "aware" of vis a vis the currents and tides since he does not cite any of the original sources that would have told him what that state of "awareness" was.
That's what I said...woids have meaning.
Actually, my comment is 100% correct. If the US Navy had "appreciated" the current, they would have trained Naval personnel to make corrections for such a treacherous current.
There is difference in being "aware" and having "appreciation".
I'll stick with Balkoski for the time being. After you write your book, I'll buy a copy and take your comments under consideration!
Cheers NYGiant
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RichTO90
Bremerton
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Posts: 711
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Sorry but no you are conflating two different things and its effect.
1. The navies (US and RN) did appreciate the effects of currents and their estimates- after re-examining various reports - was accurate. Even the vortex off the mouth of the Douve was known as was the variability of the currents.
2. The effect of wind was also appreciated but what was not known was that Eisenhower would chose to go ahead when the predictd winds that morning were marginally within the planning parameters. However, the actual winds at OMAHA may have exceeded that and the gusts were apparently the worse encountered on any of the beaches. We know that because what resulted at OMAHA was different from every other beach. No such dispersal of the lighter craft occurred elsewhere even though the crews had similar training and appreciation of the expected conditions.
3. The experience at UTAH demonstrates that well...the current shifted the boat formation because the loss of control vessels masked the movement Southeast. However the wind had less effect because they were heading into the wind instead of perpendicular to it. At OMAHA the shallow draft keel-less LCA and LCVP were unable to handle the current and crosswind, except for the most skilled coxswains.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Thank you for your response. We disagree on the definition of "aware" and "appreciate".
Is the BIGOT NEPTUNE Monograph available to the general public?
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RichTO90
Bremerton
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Posts: 711
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote: Thank you for your response. We disagree on the meaning of aware and appreciate.
No, I don't think we do. The NEPTUNE Monograph was essentially a terrain study in support of the NEPTUNE planning. It appreciated what the problem was and made those problems aware to the planners. That despite that appreciation and awareness a problem occurred at OMAHA is not the fault of the appreciation or awareness because those problems did not occur elsewhere.
The mistake that too many historians have made in the past is to view the US and British landings on D-Day as two separate halves that made up a whole. Major Lewis in his execrable OMAHA Beach Flawed Victory is probably one of the worst offenders in that respect. However, it was truly a joint and combined operation. The landing plan - the naval side of it - was generated by a joint US/British staff and has certain "cookie cutter" aspects to its layout. But it was an even more integrated operation than that. At UTAH, of the four attack transports carrying the infantry assault force, there were US and one was British. At OMAHA, seven were US and two were British, while the Ranger assault forces was entirely on British assault ships. There were both US and British-crewed LCT flotillas at each as well. The British assault transports at GOLD, JUNO, and SWORD were all British or Canadian but again the LCT flotillas were a mixed bag. Meanwhile, all of the LCI (L) carrying the vital reserve and follow-on infantry were US-manned.
So the idea that OMAHA was different because of a different "appreciation", level of "awareness", or nationality simply doesn't fit the facts.
Quote:Is the BIGOT NEPTUNE Monograph available to the general public?
Someone was trying to get it published but I can't find it on Amazon so I don't think they ever did. Otherwise it is at NARA College Park II.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Thanks.
A shame I can't read it for myself. I'll have to be patient and wait for it to be published.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Surfing the web, I was able to come up with this link...
https://digital.evpl.org/digital/collection/p16848coll2/id/4725
This is the Neptune Monograph. It lacks the maps shoreline sketches and charts. I believe you can find the maps elsewhere.
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1702
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Does NHHC have a copy?
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
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Posts: 1702
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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There is a planet where intelligent plants are the dominant lifeform. The king had a son that wanted to get married to a lady plant that was pretty much a bubblehead. The father had some sage advice for him.
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."
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RichTO90
Bremerton
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Quote: Does NHHC have a copy?
Probably. It was originally put together by COM TF 122, which was USN.
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NYGiant
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
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Having read extensively about the current at Omaha Beach on June 6th, 1944, I present the following:
1. From the book, "D-Day, The First 72 Hours" by WilliamF Buckingham, on page 161, "However, there was a strong current running east and roughly parallel to the coast, which the 741st Battalion's DD commanders do not appear to have been aware of."
2. From the book "Breaching Fortress Europe" by Sid Berger, on page 143, "The easterly flowing tidal current was stronger than expected and contributed to navigation errors, especially where the crews for small boats were relatively inexperienced."
So, some were not aware of the current and some did not appreciate the strength of that current.
I'll be returning to Omaha Beach again, leading a tour of Buffs on an in-depth study of the WNs.
Let me know if you have any questions.
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