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 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
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NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/18/2022 5:11:06 AM
On November 18, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln boards a train for Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, to deliver a short speech the following day at the dedication of a cemetery of soldiers killed during the battle there on July 1 to July 3, 1863. The address Lincoln gave in Gettysburg became one of the most famous speeches in American history.

Lincoln had given much thought to what he wanted to say at Gettysburg, but nearly missed his chance to say it. Shortly before the trip, Lincoln’s son, Tad, became ill with a fever. The president and his wife Mary Todd Lincoln were no strangers to juvenile illness: They had already lost two sons to disease. Prone to fits of hysteria, Mary Lincoln panicked when her husband prepared to leave. However, Lincoln felt the opportunity to speak at Gettysburg and present his defense of the war was too important to miss, so he boarded a train and headed to Pennsylvania.

Despite his son’s illness, Lincoln was in good spirits during the journey. He was accompanied by an entourage that included Secretary of State William Seward, Postmaster General Montgomery Blair, Interior Secretary John Usher, Lincoln’s personal secretaries John Hay and John Nicolay, several members of the diplomat corps, some foreign visitors, a Marine band, and a military escort.



When Lincoln arrived in Gettysburg, he was handed a telegram that lifted his spirits: Tad was feeling much better. Lincoln enjoyed an evening dinner and a serenade by the Fifth New York Artillery Band before he retired to finalize his famous Gettysburg Address.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/19/2022 9:17:05 AM
“Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But in a larger sense we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. I

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion, that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
=============================================================================================================================================

The greatest speech ever articulated, defining what Democracy was all about.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/19/2022 11:03:48 AM
Quote:
The greatest speech ever articulated, defining what Democracy was all about.


Really? There is a great big world out there and many speakers have made impactful speeches that resonate with the people of their own countries. Some speeches transcend international borders. Some are speeches important to the period in time in which they were made. Among the speeches delivered in English, I can think of a number of Churchill speeches that were important to the survival of his nation in the historical period in which they were delivered.

I think of Martin Luther King's, "I have a Dream" speech as impactful and important in the history of your country.

I certainly don't have any background in speeches made in other languages that were impactful but surely they exist.

To claim Lincoln's speech as "the greatest ever articulated" strikes me as impossible to prove and certainly smacks of jingoism and hubris. Perhaps you should qualify the statement.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
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Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/19/2022 11:15:46 AM
A big world, but few have the stature of Lincoln. Nor his presence which has transcended the ages.

Churchill never had to confront a civil war. MLK gave his speech in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial. THAT, in itself, speaks to the greatness of Lincoln.

George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/19/2022 12:42:06 PM
Quote:
A big world, but few have the stature of Lincoln. Nor his presence which has transcended the ages.

Churchill never had to confront a civil war. MLK gave his speech in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial. THAT, in itself, speaks to the greatness of Lincoln.



You cite American history, NY. That's fine but please acknowledge that that it may not have had world wide implications.

As for Winston, he was battling an existential threat to his nation and the world. I suggest that a loss by Britain at that point in history would have had greater ramifications to more people across the world than a defeat in a civil war. He was rallying the British nations and the Empire and letting others across the world know that defeat was not an option and that those who respected freedom should consider joining the conflict. I refer to the, "We Shall Fight on the Beaches" speech. That it came post Dunkirk made it especially poignant as Britain was taking solace though defeated in France, knowing that they had managed to extract thousands of British, French and Belgian soldiers.

King's speech next to the Lincoln Memorial?? Makes sense to a people who had been enslaved for hundreds of years to make an aspirational speech next to a statue of the man who spoke of their emancipation, albeit belatedly.

Look, I like Lincoln's speech. He asked the nation to honour those who had fought to keep the union together. And he alluded to the unfinished business of nation building hoping that the principles upon which the nation was founded would endure.

My objection is to your rather annoying habit of claiming that everything that happens in the US must be the biggest, the best and the most important. Simply not provable nor true in this case.

Why not just accept that Lincoln's speech came at a critical time in the civil war and he implored the nation to remember how and why it was founded? Good on him for that. Surely you can appreciate that other orators may even be better wordsmiths or that the delivery of their speeches came at an equally critical juncture when in conflict.

Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/19/2022 3:53:52 PM
A giant among the great speeches, ironically even more so on account of its brevity.

Also, the setting and the circumstances add a singular poignancy .

I’m aware of the Athenian influence here : the Funeral Oration of Pericles in the Peloponnesian War has been cited as a provenance of sorts.

They were fantastic orators in those days : I remember as a history undergraduate having to read the Congressional Globe, and to this day I still sense a thrill when I recall the power of the language in those debates from 1850 and into the war.

I’m sure that Churchill himself was indebted to that American tradition.

How can we rank the impact of These Honored Dead against Their Finest Hour ?

Both of them are so profoundly moving.

Regards, Phil

----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 668
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 12:07:00 AM
Every time I look at photos of the procession to the speakers platform and of the platform, I'm trying to find my great-great grandfather. I know he was there and was one of the prominent figures in town but I've never been able to spot him.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
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Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 7:56:02 AM
I feel that a loss by the United States and the forming of a separate nation had greater ramifications for the World and especially Great Britain. If there were 2 Americas, then the Lend Lease and the US being the Arsenal of Democracy does not come into existence. US destroyers are not sent to GB. And the speech " We will fight them on the beaches"....recall that it ends with the New World , with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and liberation of the old". That does not occur if there is a Confederacy.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 7:57:07 AM
The site of the platform and where Lincoln stood, has been 99% identified.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 7:58:37 AM
"I’m sure that Churchill himself was indebted to that American tradition."

Not only tradition, but Churchill's Mother was an American, which makes him, an American citizen.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 8:49:47 AM
Quote:
"I’m sure that Churchill himself was indebted to that American tradition."

Not only tradition, but Churchill's Mother was an American, which makes him, an American citizen.


Tongue in cheek. Churchill was born in Blenheim Palace. Wasn't it Kennedy who made him an honorary citizen of the US?
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 8:57:19 AM
Wasn't Churchill's Mom, Jennie, a daughter of Leonard Jerome, a wealthy American businessman?


It is my impression that in 1963, US President John F. Kennedy, acting under authorisation granted by an Act of Congress, proclaimed him an honorary citizen of the United States.

Public Law 88-6 (1963) granted honorary citizenship to Winston Churchill.

Presidents just can't make people citizens. If that was the case, all those illegals who are seeking asylum would be made citizens by the sitting President.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 8:58:08 AM
Quote:
I feel that a loss by the United States and the forming of a separate nation had greater ramifications for the World and especially Great Britain. If there were 2 Americas, then the Lend Lease and the US being the Arsenal of Democracy does not come into existence. US destroyers are not sent to GB. And the speech " We will fight them on the beaches"....recall that it ends with the New World , with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and liberation of the old". That does not occur if there is a Confederacy.



Churchill was gently reminding a reluctant New World (read US) that there was a serious war being prosecuted and that a dangerous regime or regimes had to be defeated.

So NYG you are projecting some 80 years in the future. That's a lot of stars that have to align before your scenario comes true. I could just as easily speculate that with British investment the Confederacy becomes more powerful than the US.

Or I could speculate that the industrial power of the US would continue to grow irrespective of the loss of significant land mass with the split. The less prosperous Confederacy would become a vassal state of the US.

Or I could speculate that the new US, seeking alliances, becomes less isolationist than it did become.

We're blowing smoke here.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 9:04:40 AM
Quote:
Wasn't Churchill's Mom, Jennie, a daughter of Leonard Jerome, a wealthy American businessman?


It is my impression that in 1963, US President John F. Kennedy, acting under authorisation granted by an Act of Congress, proclaimed him an honorary citizen of the United States.

Public Law 88-6 (1963) granted honorary citizenship to Winston Churchill.

Presidents just can't make people citizens. If that was the case, all those illegals who are seeking asylum would be made citizens by the sitting President.



Yes, and I don't think that US citizenship can be conferred on a foreign born child with one American parent unless that parent was living in the US for some period of time. What were the regulations when Winston was born in 1874?

Well, NY, while expressing admiration for Lincoln's timely speech, I cannot accept that his address at Gettysburg was the greatest speech ever made. That is a decidedly American frame of reference.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 9:07:20 AM
Churchill was not adept at the workings of the US Republic. FDR had to work with a Congress that was isolationist because of their belief that the US was tricked into entering World War I. FDR had to slowly convince the American people and Congress of the threat to our Nation.

"So NYG you are projecting some 80 years in the future. That's a lot of stars that have to align before your scenario comes true. I could just as easily speculate that with British investment the Confederacy becomes more powerful than the US."
Not so easy a speculation about British investment. As the largest processor of cotton in the world, Manchester took a strong moral and political stance by supporting Lincoln despite his blockade of the Confederate states beginning in April 1861. This measure drastically reduced supplies of cotton reaching Liverpool and, therefore, the cotton mills of Lancashire. In supporting Lincoln and the Union, Manchester working people selflessly put their principles ahead of their economic self-interest.

And recall, the threat to Canada if GB dared enter the American Civil War.


NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 9:13:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Wasn't Churchill's Mom, Jennie, a daughter of Leonard Jerome, a wealthy American businessman?


It is my impression that in 1963, US President John F. Kennedy, acting under authorisation granted by an Act of Congress, proclaimed him an honorary citizen of the United States.

Public Law 88-6 (1963) granted honorary citizenship to Winston Churchill.

Presidents just can't make people citizens. If that was the case, all those illegals who are seeking asylum would be made citizens by the sitting President.



Yes, and I don't think that US citizenship can be conferred on a foreign born child with one American parent unless that parent was living in the US for some period of time. What were the regulations when Winston was born in 1874?

Well, NY, while expressing admiration for Lincoln's timely speech, I cannot accept that his address at Gettysburg was the greatest speech ever made. That is a decidedly American frame of reference.



WRONG!! US citizenship can be conferred!!!!

Senator Cruz from Texas was born of aa US Mother in Canada. Rafael Edward Cruz was born on December 22, 1970, at Foothills Medical Centre in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to Eleanor Elizabeth (née Darragh) Wilson and Rafael Cruz. Cruz's mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware. She is of three-quarters Irish and one-quarter Italian descent, and earned an undergraduate degree in mathematics from Rice University in the 1950s.
Cruz's father, Rafael, was born and raised in Cuba, the son of a Canary Islander who immigrated to Cuba as a child. As a teenager in the 1950s, Rafael Cruz was beaten by agents of Fulgencio Batista for opposing the Batista regime. He left Cuba in 1957 to attend the University of Texas at Austin and obtained political asylum in the United States after his four-year student visa expired. He earned Canadian citizenship in 1973 and became a naturalized United States citizen in 2005.

I learned this is Civics, 101 Honors section.

Is there another frame of reference, for the Gettysburg Address?


George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 10:22:51 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wasn't Churchill's Mom, Jennie, a daughter of Leonard Jerome, a wealthy American businessman?


It is my impression that in 1963, US President John F. Kennedy, acting under authorisation granted by an Act of Congress, proclaimed him an honorary citizen of the United States.

Public Law 88-6 (1963) granted honorary citizenship to Winston Churchill.

Presidents just can't make people citizens. If that was the case, all those illegals who are seeking asylum would be made citizens by the sitting President.



Yes, and I don't think that US citizenship can be conferred on a foreign born child with one American parent unless that parent was living in the US for some period of time. What were the regulations when Winston was born in 1874?

Well, NY, while expressing admiration for Lincoln's timely speech, I cannot accept that his address at Gettysburg was the greatest speech ever made. That is a decidedly American frame of reference.



WRONG!! US citizenship can be conferred!!!!

Senator Cruz from Texas was born of aa US Mother in Canada. Rafael Edward Cruz was born on December 22, 1970, at Foothills Medical Centre in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to Eleanor Elizabeth (née Darragh) Wilson and Rafael Cruz. Cruz's mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware. She is of three-quarters Irish and one-quarter Italian descent, and earned an undergraduate degree in mathematics from Rice University in the 1950s.
Cruz's father, Rafael, was born and raised in Cuba, the son of a Canary Islander who immigrated to Cuba as a child. As a teenager in the 1950s, Rafael Cruz was beaten by agents of Fulgencio Batista for opposing the Batista regime. He left Cuba in 1957 to attend the University of Texas at Austin and obtained political asylum in the United States after his four-year student visa expired. He earned Canadian citizenship in 1973 and became a naturalized United States citizen in 2005.

I learned this is Civics, 101 Honors section.

Is there another frame of reference, for the Gettysburg Address?




No need to SHOUT, NY. And very pleased to see that you were listening in your Civics class. You may be the only one on this forum who has an education or at least, the only one that keeps mentioning it.

You still haven't explained why Churchill did not have citizenship conferred upon him so I went to the US Embassy site in Canada and this is the current regulation to confer citizenship to a foreign born child with at least one parent born in the US.

Quote:
Children born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent(s) (under the age of 18) may have a claim to U.S. citizenship. The following is a brief description of the various circumstances under which a child born abroad may acquire U.S. citizenship. For further information please select the description below that best fits your family circumstances.

Transmission of U.S. citizenship depends on:

At least one parent having the nationality of the United States at the time of the child’s birth;
The existence of a blood relationship between the child and U.S. citizen parent(s);
Documentary evidence demonstrating the U.S. citizen parent(s)’ presence in the United States prior to the child’s birth, as specified in the Transmission Requirements Table below.


And this:

Quote:
A child born outside of the United States to one U.S. citizen parent and one non-U.S. citizen parent may be entitled to citizenship providing the U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years, at least two years of which were after s/he reached the age of fourteen.


[Read More]


Now I don't know whether the citizenship regulations were the same in 1874. I doubt it because the US had some restrictive regulations that prevented people of Chinese descent from obtaining citizenship around that time period.

So now we have to determine whether Mother Churchill had been living out of the US for a long period of time. That would ensure that Winston had no claim to citizenship.

NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 10:58:28 AM
Even Winston Churchill admitted he was "half American by blood".
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 12:41:39 PM
Quote:
Even Winston Churchill admitted he was "half American by blood".


Admitted ? That makes it sound like a confession. He was proud to proclaim it.

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 1:03:51 PM
Quote:
Even Winston Churchill admitted he was "half American by blood".


This is an irrelevant comment. However, as is your wont, it does give you the last word.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 7177
Joined: 2006
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 1:11:41 PM
Quote:


I learned this is Civics, 101 Honors section.

NYGiant



Honors!!???
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 4:56:26 PM
Direct quote by Churchill.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 4:58:16 PM
Didn't you take Honors classes?
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12573
Joined: 2009
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 5:43:53 PM
Quote:
Didn't you take Honors classes?


NYG, there are PHD's, Masters and university undergraduates on this forum. There are people who may not have had the opportunity to attend post secondary institutions but are well able read and study history and to write about it. There are published authors on the forum. For the most part, the subject of educational qualifications is not addressed on this forum.

I am always suspicious of people who engage in a pissing contest over their bona fides. I think that it reveals a lack of self-confidence.

Did any of your honours courses contain discussions and instruction on civil discourse?
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 5:56:33 PM
What is so up-setting about taking a high school Honors Civics course?
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 668
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 6:58:52 PM
Umm, George G. Meade, although born in Cadiz, Spain, was an American citizen. Churchill was not an American citizen because when he reached his majority he did not seek American citizenship.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 668
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 7:00:48 PM
Quote:
The site of the platform and where Lincoln stood, has been 99% identified.


I will alert the media to that astonishing revelation...here we were all thinking its location had been lost.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 8:32:18 PM
Quote:
Umm, George G. Meade, although born in Cadiz, Spain, was an American citizen. Churchill was not an American citizen because when he reached his majority he did not seek American citizenship.

WRONG!!

Prior to 1934, U.S. citizen mothers could not transmit U.S. citizenship to children born abroad; only U.S. citizen fathers could do that. In 1994, Congress passed the Immigration and Nationality Technical Corrections Act, section 101 (a)(2) of which added INA 301(h) (8 USC 1401(h)) which granted citizenship to people born abroad to a U.S. citizen mother before 1934:

Nice try though.

Cheers, NYGiant
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/20/2022 8:32:40 PM
Quote:
Umm, George G. Meade, although born in Cadiz, Spain, was an American citizen. Churchill was not an American citizen because when he reached his majority he did not seek American citizenship.

That is not correct, sorry.

Prior to 1934, U.S. citizen mothers could not transmit U.S. citizenship to children born abroad; only U.S. citizen fathers could do that. In 1994, Congress passed the Immigration and Nationality Technical Corrections Act, section 101 (a)(2) of which added INA 301(h) (8 USC 1401(h)) which granted citizenship to people born abroad to a U.S. citizen mother before 1934:

Nice try though.

Cheers, NYGiant
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 668
Joined: 2004
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/21/2022 1:09:23 AM
Quote:
That is not correct, sorry.

Prior to 1934, U.S. citizen mothers could not transmit U.S. citizenship to children born abroad; only U.S. citizen fathers could do that. In 1994, Congress passed the Immigration and Nationality Technical Corrections Act, section 101 (a)(2) of which added INA 301(h) (8 USC 1401(h)) which granted citizenship to people born abroad to a U.S. citizen mother before 1934:

Nice try though.

Cheers, NYGiant


Congratulations! You actually went and checked. Then cited the proof. That wasn't so hard, was it?
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 610
Joined: 2021
Lincoln travels to Gettysburg
11/21/2022 6:58:13 AM
I'm glad I could help explain what really happened!

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