MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:  
Password:  
 
 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
Page 3 of 3 (Page:  1   2    3  )
Message
Jim Cameron
Ossining NY USA
Posts: 969
Joined: 2005
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
8/15/2021 6:07:30 PM
Doing a rough count of the dead bodies in the two images (HOD and the "Oak Ridge view"), there appear to be at least 20 visible. I say "rough count" because it's hard to say for sure with some of the more distant figures. Could be more, could be less.
Given the usual ratio of dead to wounded, 20 dead would suggest fairly heavy action.
As far as I am aware, no Union infantry was involved in any significant combat action as far out along the Mummasburg Road as the Forney farm buildings.
That being the case, if the proposed location is correct, where would the bodies have come from?
----------------------------------
Jim Cameron Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
Ed B.
Las Vegas NV USA
Posts: 25
Joined: 2021
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
8/15/2021 10:44:43 PM
"...a rough count of the dead bodies..." Could you number them?

And what do you make of the white objects strewn about? They seem to be white paper boxes.

This is the best downloadable version of HOD I know of. Better than the LOC one.

The J. Paul Getty Museum
A Harvest of Death, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania

Downloads a sepia tone image. Two versions are available. The “cropped” version is the better.

http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/58082/timothy-h-o'sullivan-print-by-alexander-gardner-a-harvest-of-death-gettysburg-pennsylvania-american-july-4-1863/
Jim Cameron
Ossining NY USA
Posts: 969
Joined: 2005
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
8/16/2021 5:17:43 PM
Quote:
"...a rough count of the dead bodies..." Could you number them?


It was just a quick count with some guesses on some of the more distant ones.

Quote:
And what do you make of the white objects strewn about? They seem to be white paper boxes.


Hard to say what they are. The tin cartridge box insert was reasonably clear, on enlargement. (BTW, Frassanito suggested that as a possibility back in 1995.) Some sort of trash is about the best I can say. Possibly paper wrappers from ammunition packets? (The troops would put these in the bottom compartment of the cartridge box insert, for protection from handling and the elements. ) Just a guess on my part.
One thing that does stand out in the HOD image is that despite all the bodies, and some trash, the battlefield is rather clean. Anything of military value, such as dropped weapons and accoutrements (waist and cross belts, cartridge boxes, haversacks and packs, even canteens, has already been policed up for salvage. The dead are left with just the clothes on their backs. If the remaining objects left strewn about had any use, they'd have been gathered up too.


This is the best downloadable version of HOD I know of. Better than the LOC one.

The J. Paul Getty Museum
A Harvest of Death, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania

Downloads a sepia tone image. Two versions are available. The “cropped” version is the better.

http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/58082/timothy-h-o'sullivan-print-by-alexander-gardner-a-harvest-of-death-gettysburg-pennsylvania-american-july-4-1863/

----------------------------------
Jim Cameron Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
74PA
Dumfries VA USA
Posts: 17
Joined: 2018
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
9/26/2021 9:20:28 AM
Not sure anyone is particularly interested in this, but the closest Union unit to the location that Ed has posited wasn’t the 16th Maine, but rather the 45th and 157th New York regiments which had attacked and captured the McClain barn and farm. Their advance had taken them fairly close to the Forney farm, albeit on the east side of Mummasburg road (same side as the dead bodies), whereas I don’t recall the 16th Maine advancing beyond its defensive position. Also, the 45th NY were German troops and they carried Sabre bayonets, which was something they carried due to it’s pre-war popularity among Turner (gymnastics) and shooting clubs. But I have no opinion on the photos and their locations. Just adding some additional facts to the stew.
Jim Cameron
Ossining NY USA
Posts: 969
Joined: 2005
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
9/30/2021 9:00:16 PM
I don't believe that the 45th NY ever made it up to the top of Oak Ridge after capturing the McLane farm. That being the case it would have been nowhere near the Forney buildings. Likewise, the 157th NY remained east of the ridge, and came nowhere near Forney.
----------------------------------
Jim Cameron Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
Chris Van Blargan
Canal Fulton OH USA
Posts: 3
Joined: 2021
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
10/19/2021 12:44:14 PM
I've been looking at these pictures a long time and have my own hypothetical location. Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd post a few observations for your comments (taking note of Tim Smith and Garry Adelman's point 9 on looking at historic photo sites from their Harvest of Death Series at Gettsyburg Daily). Tim and Gary have 3-D versions of Frassanito's VI-13. You can clearly see a significant rut going from the lower right to upper left of the photo, and the soldier to the far right is lying in it. There also appears to be another rut running parallel in the background. They seem consistent with a set of wagon ruts, although I am not convinced. It certainly doesn't appear to be a significant roadway -- at most a farm lane. From the colorized version on Tim and Garry's page, it also appears there is a change in the ground cover as well, with trampled hay or grain crop in the foreground transitioning to shorter grass in the background.

http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/HODTG041817/HODTG04181701.jpg
Chris Van Blargan
Canal Fulton OH USA
Posts: 3
Joined: 2021
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
10/19/2021 12:56:21 PM
One of the concerns I have is with the angle measurement of the companion photos VI-13 and VI-14. Frassanito estimates the angle at the crossover of the photo centerlines at 135 degrees whereas Smith and Adelman estimate it at 130 degrees. The estimate seems to be based in large part on Frassanito's diagram of the bodies (see Ed's post above). However, the accuracy of the degree measurement depends greatly on the overhead estimate of the body positions and distances, and I suspect Frassanito's diagram, while extremely helpful, is not a detailed forensic map. If you move the bodies in the map a few feet in any direction, it changes the center-line overlay and angles of the photos. I agree completely that the angle is greater than 90 but less than 180, and 130-135 seems like a good median, but I think limiting the variance to 10 degrees in either direction would be putting too much faith in the diagram.

Chris Van Blargan
Canal Fulton OH USA
Posts: 3
Joined: 2021
Proposed Site - The Harvest of Death
10/19/2021 1:09:58 PM
One of the concepts I have been struggling with is that the photos were taken in a clockwise direction of, as Frassanito estimates, approximately 135 degrees. That is, where the center lines of the photos cross over, the angle is approximately 135 degrees. However, to locate where the pictures were taken, you have to go to the edge of the clock, look in, and then determine the cross-over location. I have been struggling to approximate the radii of that clock to the center point. The Frassanito diagram locations was likely just to show the approximate angles as the photos appear to have been taken a considerable distance back (making slight variations in the body positions all the more important for the angles). A ballpark guess is that the camera position in each picture was about 10 to 15 feet from the closest body meaning the camera positions were a little less than 20 to 30 feet apart. I would appreciate any thoughts.
Page 3 of 3 (Page:  1   2    3  )

© 2022 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC